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Common self contradiction of the religious
#52
RE: Common self contradiction of the religious
(June 10, 2014 at 5:46 am)Tonus Wrote: I guess the real question I'm wondering is: is there an environment that contains all that could possibly be? Does the universe exist within some other construct?

We'd have to define what you mean by 'environment' and 'all that could possibly be.' From a Christian perspective, if you are defining 'all that could possibly be' as material things then given the creation account I'd say no.

I don't know that the Bible proposes an answer to the 'environment' question. I'll offer my opinion. If you're defining 'environment' as: "the aggregate of surrounding things, conditions, or influences; surroundings; milieu." then I would say that God creates an environment, He doesn't live in one. It's an abstract concept but I would propose that if we removed all that God has created, nothing else would exist except God.

If we viewed the 'environment' as God, and the 'other construct that the universe exists within' as God, then yes to both questions. I don't know how it specifically worked, but the Bible says that God spoke things into existence. Perhaps the 'other construct' was the 'thoughts of God'. In other words, perhaps the universe existed as a concept within the mind of God but did not become physical until God spoke. Therefore, if the mind of God is eternal and the universe existed within the mind of God, the universe would therefore be eternal. So the environment that would exist that would contain all that could possibly be, could be God himself.
(June 10, 2014 at 5:46 am)Tonus Wrote: If the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into?
It's my understanding that expansion is viewed in two ways. The first is as a doppler shift. This states that the stars and planets are moving away from each other through space. In other words, stars and planets move, space stays still. The other view is that the stars and planets are remaining stationary while space is being stretched (imagine putting dots [representative of planets and stars] on a deflated balloon, as you blow up the balloon the 'space' between the dots stretches and the dots get further apart). It's my understanding that the second explanation is more scientifically accurate.
(June 15, 2014 at 12:02 pm)Freedom of thought Wrote: Because time could be an emergent property of the universe. Most scientists think the 'arrow of time' is simply due to energy/entropy. Saying the universe existed in the 'timeless' state with all of its energy content, in which time emerged is consistent with everything we know.
This statement is pretty ambiguous. What do you mean it is 'consistent with everything we know?'
(June 15, 2014 at 12:02 pm)Freedom of thought Wrote: I don't deny 99% of these scientific theories, because I don't have a bet on a gap in current physical models for a magic man to work. As a theist, you must be incredibly closed minded to all current cosmology, because it goes against all your beliefs about god creating the universe.
How do you know I don't look at current cosmology and see it confirming scripture?
(June 15, 2014 at 12:02 pm)Freedom of thought Wrote: But this type of bet against science failing is foolish, because science will win every time, as it has in the past.
I used to play science in chess, it always used the Alekhine's defense, so predictable. But I guess that's why it's science.
(June 15, 2014 at 12:02 pm)Freedom of thought Wrote: You made this claim by saying the universe can't be infinite.
The current scientific consensus is that the universe is expanding. If the universe is expanding then it cannot be infinite. Therefore the universe cannot be infinite.
(June 15, 2014 at 12:02 pm)Freedom of thought Wrote: If you are willing to grant an infinite god, there is no reason you can't grant an infinite universe.

This is an illogical argument. Your affirming the consequent.
(June 15, 2014 at 12:02 pm)Freedom of thought Wrote: How can a mind exist transcendent of space and time?
From the 'plates' perspective, how can the human exist?
(June 15, 2014 at 12:02 pm)Freedom of thought Wrote: Isn't time a requirement for a mind to be able to think? A timeless mind, is by its very nature non functional. If a mind exists transcendent of time, I hardly see how it would classify as a mind. A mind functions within time, one thought flows after another, I hardly see how a 'transcendent' mind would even work in the slightest. It seems to me, and incoherent concept. How could this kind of mind even do anything, like think, and let alone create a universe? How does a mind create a universe anyway, have any evidence of this process? Sounds incredibly far fetched to me.
You're dangerously close to an argument from ignorance here. Just because you can't understand how something works or stating that something sounds incredibly far fetched to you doesn't make it true or false.
(June 15, 2014 at 12:02 pm)Freedom of thought Wrote: If god makes no impact on the physical world, this being may as well not even exist to us.
Why?
(June 15, 2014 at 12:02 pm)Freedom of thought Wrote: If god exists, and wants his presence known, we should be able to study the physical world and find evidence of his existence.

This seems to be an unargued personal bias that some atheists on this site maintain: That God must reveal himself only through the physical world, else He doesn't exist. Why do you presume that God must reveal himself through the physical world, that we can only come to an understanding of God by 'studying' Him (through the scientific method).
(June 15, 2014 at 12:02 pm)Freedom of thought Wrote: And meanwhile not a shred of evidence is found for the existence of god in science,
So scientists have reached the end of their discoveries? All the questions have been answered? No more theories or hypotheses to test? Science has done away with logic, morality, and philosophy? Which science book lays claim that all things are now known, and that there is no God?
(June 15, 2014 at 12:02 pm)Freedom of thought Wrote: And if god really existed, why are you on here arguing for his existence?
I'm called to give an account.
(June 15, 2014 at 12:02 pm)Freedom of thought Wrote: Why do you have to prove anything if this being exists?

I don't.
(June 15, 2014 at 12:02 pm)Freedom of thought Wrote: Why doesn't he prove it right now to all of us and end the debate?

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists...
and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible...
would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?



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Messages In This Thread
RE: Common self contradiction of the religious - by orangebox21 - June 16, 2014 at 1:11 am

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