A discussion around family table.

[tackattack]

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That would mean that no one goes to hell unless they want to go.

Absolutely. You have the choice to do the crime. Any punishment is the result of your choice. No one is forcing you to be good.

Your god punishes when there is no crime. And if there were one, what crime is bad enough to warrant eternal torture? Seriously, which sins deserve eternal torture as punishment? And if you do agree with your bible that it is deserved, what is accomplished by a punishment with no end? Surely not a life lesson learned so you can carry on in a better, or at least deterred, way afterwards since there is no afterwards to an eternity. Is your god that revengeful, sadistic and evil?

Your reward for positivity is a clear conscience. On the other hand, foster negativity and you live hell. you are tormented. What you're arguing is counter natural. What you seem to be promoting is non accountability, and that just doesn't fit logically, whatever way you look at it.

Then you are talking about some made up heaven and hell, rather than the one xtianity teaches. A clear conscience comes from honesty and fixing any problems you may have caused, not simply positive thoughts about an invisible being you are pretty sure is there watching you. I agree though, that negativity and torment happen together, but it's not as a divine punishment. Negative emotions are a simple result of bad things happening, no matter what the cause or who is to blame for those bad things.

I agree. 'Sin' is a positive act. Christianity prescribes to the idea that humans are imperfect.

Christianity also offers complete forgiveness.

If you make a claim of imperfection, then you should be able to state the specific flaw and why it is bad. If you go one step further and claim to be able to fix this flaw, the fix should be proveable, eg proof that praying or asking forgiveness will cure whatever the flaw, in amounts that show significantly better results than placebos. Going even one step further, if you fail to fix the alleged flaw with the person by not convincing them of your cure, and if your crazed dictator God, were real and going to punish them for these sins, shouldn't the punishments fit the crime?

You're bastardising the message by claiming it feeds on guilt. That's the opposite of Christianity, and an easy cop out rather than a frank consideration of the facts.

Maybe your personal interpretation doesn't rely on guilt, but xtianity and its bible certainly do. Have you never felt guilt about anything simply because of religion telling you it's wrong, rather than feeling deep inside of you that it really is a wrong thing to do?

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Actually the sum of Christianity is contradiction. We start off as sinnners and try to live as good a life as Jesus would have wanted, knowing we'll never attain that. It would be very hypocritical without personal accountability. Our society, I feel, is drifting away from personal accounatbility and that of course bleeds into some religion. I do see the inevtable downfall of religon as an institution as a likely event, I'm just concerned at the cost that has.

If you are starting off as a sinner because of a distant ancestor eating something she was told not to eat, then where is personal accountability? How are you responsible for someone else's behaviour? Why does Jesus think you are a sinner for something you didn't even do? The result of ending religion's rule over people, will be REAL personal accountability. Little kids won't be held accountable, terrorized with worry they will be tortured eternally for not spending their lives making up for some other person's (who they never even met) table manners (don't eat that dessert yet, young lady!). Priests will be held accountable for aggrevated rape (hell is scarier than a gun or knife).

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1- I thought that was a funny video, thanks for posting it. "I was afraid to get close, " " I made myself.." " Christianity is terrorism" " all loving God will torture people.." funny stuff. What I think a lot of atheists don't get is there's a difference between judgement and punishment. Truly hellfire and brimstone are the tenants of some religions, but not the one I was raised in (nor the majority IMO), and it's a tragedy that people use fear and hatred to influence people. That's not religion's monopoly though.

2- I don't know what definition you use as hell, but it's obviously different than mine. I've put this elsewhere, but I'll reitterate. To me hell is seperation from God for eternity. It could be nothing more than an eternity of nothingness that most atheists believe happens when you die, to some eternally seeming torture chamber in your mind while your neo-cortex slowly dies. I don't believe it's an actual lake of fire you get teleported to like from star trek or anything. Oh, and that's what I teach the children in my church (about 13 kids for 3 years now) and is in line with my church's doctrine, not some made up wishful version of hell.

3- Yes the punishments should fit the crime, regardless of the context.
4- No I've never felt guilt about anything simply because of religion telling you it's wrong. My morality is subjective and religion is merely a honing and balancing tool. I usually (every instance I can think of) feel inside of me that it really is a wrong thing to do.

5-Let me explain original sin to you from my perspective (shared by many other Christians and what I teach in class) Personal accountability is very imporant. I'm not a sinner because someone who might/ might not have existed ate an apple. From the age of around 7 when our consciousness truly has matured enough to guide our actions, I've chosen what I want instead of what God wants for me. It's a hourly struggle to sacrifice the self and be selfless, that is the original sin, to presume to question God's will and presuming we could have a better grasp on what's right and wrong then the creator of good and evil, omnificent and omnipresent God.

6- I will fight with you for real personal accountability. You can start by showing some intellectual honesty and researching other denominations of Christianity and their beliefs before you condemn a hugh portion of the population as idiot, child terrorists.

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If it is a metaphor, then it's a pretty crappy one to teach people. "You are guilty for something that you didn't do or even intend to do". Not only that, but not guilty based on some kind of harm caused, but by disobeying a nonsensible order. And not only that, but Eve didn't even know she was being 'bad' by disobeying since she didn't know about good and evil until she ate the thing. It doesn't make sense on so many levels.

He doesn't condemn us WE condemn us!

That would mean that no one goes to hell unless they want to go. The unrepentant 'sinner' does not get this self choice according to xtianity. It the god who condemns, not the victim of that condemnation. That victim is only given the choice "gimme your wallet or I'll shoot you", but much worse of course, since the wallet is "think and do whatever I tell you for your whole life after this conversation" and the gun is "torture that never stops".

Of course though, the robbery was the victim's own fault. They were asking for it, I guess.



Actually its not about being guilty because of something you didn't do. Any time you feel jealousy, lust, anger, hatred, any of these "negative" emotions, you sin. If you succumb to them in any way, you REALLY sin. pretty much everyone is a sinner because everyone is human. That is a great trick of christianity: demonize what we all feel so that we all feel wrong about feeling what we feel, and turn to them to feel better. That's what confession's all about.

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7- Being "unrepenant" is a choice. It's a false metaphor you're using. It's much more like you can come in if you wipe your feet, or you can stay out there in the cold. What I don't get is that a lot of atheists operate within the confines of society and submit to laws and rules they don't necessarily want to follow. I don't see all the atheists running red lights, slamming doors in people's faces, punching people to settle an arguement, not holding doors for a lady, refusing to pay for a first date, etc.. Jesus doesn't ask any more than accept that you're not in control of everything, show a little respect and keep your ears open. Some act like he wants you to become some mindless, automaton crusader forcing you to bend the core of who you are to what he wants.

8- Confession is a Catholic thing, I'm not sure exactly how many other breakouts of Christianity use that. You should also not feel wrong about how you feel if it's natural to you and within your moral code. I don't apologize to God for the way I feel, often if ever. I don't run to Jesus every time some jerk on the road pisses me off, or every sinfull though. I feel guilt when I break my own morle code and use my faith to strengthen my convictions to remain true to myself.

MAybe we should all rename the "bible belt" to the "fear belt" or something. IDK, I'm getting tired though. Thanks for your replies on this so far everyone.