A discussion around family table.

[tackattack]

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1- I thought that was a funny video, thanks for posting it. "I was afraid to get close, " " I made myself.." " Christianity is terrorism" " all loving God will torture people.." funny stuff. What I think a lot of atheists don't get is there's a difference between judgement and punishment. Truly hellfire and brimstone are the tenants of some religions, but not the one I was raised in (nor the majority IMO), and it's a tragedy that people use fear and hatred to influence people. That's not religion's monopoly though.

That video makes me cry more than laugh, but the guy in it does have a good sense of humour which shows in some of his other videos. I'm not sure what religion you were raised in, but I was assuming you are now a Christian. That is the religion that believes in hellfire and brimstone. I am aware though, that there are many well intentioned people out there who adapt (cherry pick or change outright) the bible to be less horrific. That speaks well of their inner morality compared to those who think it's good to blindly accept immoral behaviour just because they think a god did it.

2- I don't know what definition you use as hell, but it's obviously different than mine. I've put this elsewhere, but I'll reitterate. To me hell is seperation from God for eternity. It could be nothing more than an eternity of nothingness that most atheists believe happens when you die, to some eternally seeming torture chamber in your mind while your neo-cortex slowly dies. I don't believe it's an actual lake of fire you get teleported to like from star trek or anything. Oh, and that's what I teach the children in my church (about 13 kids for 3 years now) and is in line with my church's doctrine, not some made up wishful version of hell.

Then your church does not follow the bible. However, an eternity of a mildly bad 'separation' is still an eternity of a bad feeling. Not as bad as writhing and gnashing, but still, not a nice thing to do to a person just because they didn't pander to your god's narcissism by telling it telepathically that they adore it and praise it and love it, or simply didn't believe in it without any valid indication of its reality.

3- Yes the punishments should fit the crime, regardless of the context.

Then what finite human crime qualifies for eternal punishment? Seriously, what one(s)?

4- No I've never felt guilt about anything simply because of religion telling you it's wrong. My morality is subjective and religion is merely a honing and balancing tool. I usually (every instance I can think of) feel inside of me that it really is a wrong thing to do.

It's sad though if you have to second guess yourself by double checking if your morals are approved by the religion's dogma.

5-Let me explain original sin to you from my perspective (shared by many other Christians and what I teach in class) Personal accountability is very imporant. I'm not a sinner because someone who might/ might not have existed ate an apple. From the age of around 7 when our consciousness truly has matured enough to guide our actions, I've chosen what I want instead of what God wants for me. It's a hourly struggle to sacrifice the self and be selfless, that is the original sin, to presume to question God's will and presuming we could have a better grasp on what's right and wrong then the creator of good and evil, omnificent and omnipresent God.

You are assuming that being yourself is itself a sin. If your god really didn't want you to be yourself, he wouldn't have made you that way. And it's no test to filter the good humans from the bad, since your god wouldn't have been so stupid as to create something he thought was bad like sin and the ability to sin, would he? I mean especially if the price for failing such a test would involve punishment at all. If you want to claim there is any sort of sin at all, original or not, then acknowledge that your god made it and intended it to be that way. If you really believe that your god created everything, is all powerful and all knowing, then be prepared that he's got to take all the blame as well as the credit. Xtians like to blame a devil, or 'evil', or human choices or whatever for all the bad stuff, but no way. If your god made everything, then he made his worst enemy too, even though for some unknown reason is unable to blink his eyes and make the devil vanish forever. Must be those mysterious ways.

6- I will fight with you for real personal accountability. You can start by showing some intellectual honesty and researching other denominations of Christianity and their beliefs before you condemn a hugh portion of the population as idiot, child terrorists.

It says right in all official versions of the xtian rulebook that the hell myth is to be seen as real. Are the ones who believe the bible not real xtians?

7- Being "unrepenant" is a choice. It's a false metaphor you're using. It's much more like you can come in if you wipe your feet, or you can stay out there in the cold. What I don't get is that a lot of atheists operate within the confines of society and submit to laws and rules they don't necessarily want to follow. I don't see all the atheists running red lights, slamming doors in people's faces, punching people to settle an arguement, not holding doors for a lady, refusing to pay for a first date, etc.. Jesus doesn't ask any more than accept that you're not in control of everything, show a little respect and keep your ears open. Some act like he wants you to become some mindless, automaton crusader forcing you to bend the core of who you are to what he wants.

If your god were real, my choice would be to follow immoral rules that lower my and other people's quality of life, and do so for the rest of my life, or to suffer hideously forever. True feelings of repenting has nothing to do with it when there is a gun to your head, unless you develop Stockholm's syndrome.

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1-You can't say Christianity as a whole believes in hellfire and brimstone. Your definition of Chrsitianity is wrong. Southern baptists and evangelical luherans do preach hellfire and brimstone, but that subject is not broched in the universl creeds.

2- That would also be an incorrect statement. Hellfire is only mentioned 2 maybe 3 times in the entire bible (outside the acid trip that is revelation- which is judgement day anyways not today) and in all referecne I recall they were used in metaphors by matthew about sheep and such. If you're a literalist in your interpretation then there's a lot more to reconcile in the Bible than hell. To claim we don't follow the Bible to the letter on every little thing, yes that's a correct statement. Context and perspective is important in seeking truth though.

3- Those that exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator. Those that choose the selfish path, as opposed to the selfless.

4-Second guessiong yourself is sad? Wow .. you might try some introspection sometimes. Maybe questioning your beliefs/ behaviorwould help you grow as an individual some. I mean you might well and good things its perfectly fine to chop someone up and make a soup of them, but others might disagree. Right no need to ever question yourself.

5-God did create evil. Sin is simply a rejection of God, that's not something he created, unless you mean indirectly by giving us choice. God also created the devil and uses him to test us.. that's biblical.. why would I ever assume anything different. Who are theese people you're calling Christians? I don't think God wants to get rid of evil.. I think it's integral to growth?

6-Where does it say in the Bible or the universal creeds that Christians are to see hellfire and brimstone as a real place? You're going to have to show me that one.. I've never seen it.. I could have missed it though.

7-so you would choose to be immoral if God were real? I'm not understanding your statement I think. I don't think there's a gun to my head, I'm just trying to see where you're coming from, please rephrase.