A discussion around family table.

[Watson]

No, the metaphor would be the fictional representation of the nonfictional element.

Which is what the Bible puts forward. A fictional representation of a nonfictional being and it's attributes and teachings.

If the lessons of nonharmful behaviour being deserving of death at the hands of followers, and other equally horrible lessons are real, then the bible should be considered hate literature.

This is not the message of God, and only parts of the Bible propogate it as such. These parts of the Bible are wrong.

God is being presented as a nonfictional element rather than a metaphor if it explains how he works.

Yeah...exactly?

So these horrible lessons can't be metaphors for yet something else.

The lessons are the underlying metaphor. And said lessons are the teachings of God, represented as accurately as possible by man.

If readers can relate to it, then there would be no argument, no debate, no questioning even, as to exactly what the bible is saying humans should do, and what is real vs metaphor and if the latter what's it mean, and the many contradictions, etc.

Wrong. It is human nature to interpret and misinterpret, because perception is what each man, woman, child, or what-have-you makes of it.

Here's an example:
The popular science fiction writer, Ray Bradbury, is the author of the book Fahrenheit 451 and has spent a lot of time giving lectures on it. The book is about a distant future where books are burned and censored to all hell. It was written in the 1950s. The metaphor is of this societies degrading moral value and of the censorship running rampant within America. Lo and behold, a lot of the things within the book came true 50 years later.

But more to the point, Ray once gave a lecture on this book to a class, and they tried to tell him what it was all about. Obviously, as the author, he knew exactly what he had intended and he told them that they were wrong. They actually continued with their arguments and tried to tell him what his book was about.

This is a display and example of how humans persist in their deluded misinterpretations of any sort of literature, regardless of the actual author's intent. So you can point fingers and say "It should be crystal clear!" all you want, but unfortunately do to mankind and his nature, it is not. We are the ones who make it as such, and it is up to the rest of the world to correct the mistakes and set things right.

If mere mortal sinful humans have fucked up the holy word of god so bad that the bible is now unclear, why on earth are you following it at all?

The message is not unclear if you have already observed it's truth in the real world. I am not following the Bible, I am following God; it just so happens that the source I most often refer to in regards to a fixed reference for God's nature is the Bible.

Find your own answers, not ones from a messed up, inaccurate, often-made-up, uneducated source with a hidden political/financial theocratically-founded agenda like the Abrahamic religions.

I have. And in doing so, I have also seen the truth that lies within the Abrahamic religions. I have also been exposed to the truth that lies within other religions, too.

The world has unfortunately seen, and continues to see the result of humans applying the 'facts' of the bible to real life. Not a good track record, I'm afraid.

Did you completely ignore my statements about backwards application? The process goes like this; apply real life observations to the Bible-->Bible makes more sense-->apply the Bible to real life.

The Bible itself is not a necessity, it is simply there for those who truly have found belief to have a fixed reference when attempting to understand God. We don't need it, but it helps every now and then.

What lessons? Really, what? Specifically. And exclusive to the bible please, eg, almost every religion and nonreligious philosophy has some variation of the don't do to others empathy rule.

Exactly my point. Why do the lessons I've learned have to be exclusive to the Bible? They can be learned merely by walking the path of life and observing the way it works around you. The do to others empathy rule is a prime example of this. It works. It can be applied to real life. The Bible is documenting that, not setting out to invent that rule.

I'm very interested to know the lessons only the bible can provide.

Again, that's the point; not only the Bible can provide these lessons, a simple observation of man and the way he works, and life and the way it happens can provide these lessons. The Bible is merely a record of those observations from those men who wished to write about God in their time.

Also, I hope you don't just say something like, well it's different for everyone.

Don't worry, I wont.

Uh uh, we are not talking about a self help book here,

Yes, in a way actually, we are.

we are talking about a set of laws and commands, to be enforced on everyone, believers/nonbelievers alike to affect us our whole lives. And for you believers, you think it will also affect you after you die and forever.

No, we are not talking about a set of laws or commands to be enforced. We are talking about a set of observations on human nature and the laws that apply there. For example, the scientific law of gravity is recorded as being true in science text books everywhere, because we can observe gravity and we know it applies to everyone and everything. Similarly, the Bible is a reference for the laws of human nature and God, and their effects on man as he walks about through his life and encounters certain scenarios.

Ok, then when referring to the bible, who are the lizards and who are the commies?

The literal stories are the lizards, the lessons learned from them are the commies.

If the bible had an important message, it wouldn't play around with metaphors.

Again, yes it would, because it is much easier to represent an almost incomprehensible being, God, and an individual's experience with Him to someone who doesn't already understand or wasn't there when the experience was had, through metaphorical stories instead.

And in fact it didn't.

Yes, it did.

The writers meant for it to be taken quite seriously and factually.

The existence of God and His effects on the world, sure. Just like the writers of a scientific text book, when writing about gravity, use made up stories to demonstrate how gravity works.

You only want it to be metaphorical because you are trying to make it fit into your own personal life and morals and stuff.

No, I want it to be metaphorical, because it clearly is metaphorical.

No you haven't. You have observed real life and chalked it up to one version (xtian) of one specific supernatural cause (invisible creator deities) out of the zillions of supernatural causes that the human brain can make up and wonder about.

Where did I claim that the Christian God is the one true God? If you've ever read any of my posts here, you know that I've stated multiple times that I believe all religions to be a attempt at describing the same phenomenon. I choose Christianity as my default because I find it to be the best and most far-reaching descriptor of the phenomenon known as life/ God.

]If it's a metaphor, how do you know it's accurate?

Because it matches my observations of the real world.

And what particular metaphorical depiction(s) of God are you referring to? An example here would be nice.

I'll quote fr0do from a completely different topic here:

God is one. (Deut. 6:4, Romans 3:30, Galatians 3:20, James 2:19)
God is holy. (Psalm 99:9)
God is spirit. (John 4:24)
God is light. (1 John 1:5)
God is love. (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16)

So, how did they know anything about God?

Because they had observed Him already in their daily lives, and did their best to record the lessons and experiences they had had in a way that others would understand. Once more, I go back to the gravity example on this one. You wouldn't write in a science text book "One time, I was on my way to work, and I saw an apple fall off of a tree" as proof of gravity or as a demonstration of how gravity works.

It's even worse if the metaphors were made up by mere humans, since the very message is whatever the fuck they were thinking at the time.

The stories themselves were completely made up; the truth they allude to, though alluding to it metaphorically, is still true/real.

Your understanding doesn't count.

Why not? Especially if my understanding is based on observations of real life and the world around me, rather than any preconceptions I have formed about the world?

You can say that to excuse anything immoral or magical in that book.

Replace the word 'excuse' with 'explain', and you've got what I'm attempting to do.

Let's go by what it actually says.

I am. You are not.

If you agree with biblegod's morals and laws to follow on earth, then you are a threat to my life and well being and basic freedom.

If I am taking it literally.

It's a hideous book.

If taken literally.

The accidental time period one is born into, is no justification for that group to deserve suffering.

No, it is not. That is why I have said numerous times that the Bible is not completely accurate. For some reason, you can't seem to understand this. You're still arguing with a fundamentalist, when I certainly am not one. Are you incapable of comprehending new arguments or ideas, and dealing with them accordingly? I can't understand for the life of me why.

Anyways, even your Jesus said something about not abolishing these old laws, but to do the opposite and 'fulfill' them, make them happen, enforce them. Even gave shit to someone for not killing their disobedient children somewhere in there.

LOL @ 'your Jesus.'

Yes, that is true, that is written in the Bible. I've not read that particular part, so I'm taking your word for it here. And I also trust you have complete knowledge and understanding of the context and meaning within which all this was said? Or the context within which it was written?

Let's put it this way; you wouldn't expect a republican publication to glorify democratic values and decry republican ones, would you? Better yet, you wouldn't expect a book written during the time of slavery to understand completely why slavery is wrong, would you?

No, it goes further back than the monotheistic Abrahamic god.

Of this I am aware.

There is a theory that the Adam and Eve story represented the judeochristian takeover of the previous gnostic and other religions, Eve representing goddess worship common in many of them, and the forbidden tree of life representing the political control over possible earlier shamanic use of cannabis (the jews restricted the oil-anointing and smoke-inhaling of 'cannabosm' to priests and kings they approved of, and the xtians later stopping it altogether), etc. It's plausible as a theory for how the religious misogyny of the last few thousand years or so came about.

I seriously don't understand what this has to do with anything at all. Seriously.

But even that all goes back further. Xtianity doesn't have it's own starting point.

Except, you know, Christ.

Holidays and many concepts were taken and adapted from various other pre-existing religions. And who knows what speculative deity concepts they came from in earlier times.

Just going to show that all religions are somewhat convergent in ideals and observations. The divergent points come usualy when human politics get involved.

There is no need to add a god-filter to the world. No need at all.

I am not 'adding a god-filter' to the world. I am observing the world through belief and faith- in myself, in others, and in thsi world around me- and finding the evidence of God all around me in doing so. I am adding belief to the world, and finding that it has accurate and beneficial results.

And what are some of the many, many indications to you that God exists? Seriously, what? And don't be vague.

Remember how we talked about how you wouldn't use "I was on my way to work one time and an apple fell down" as proof of gravity? Similarly, I cannot use any of my subjective experieces to prove to your subjectivity that God exists. Unless you had been there, you didn't 'see the apple fall', so to speak.

One example, however, would be that I have found indication of what love is and experienced it's existence, and have discovered it to be coinsiding with what God is meant to be as well. Remember:

God is love. (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16)

Even mere mortal rock stars lose respect for fans who worship and adore ad nauseum. Why would your god even like you doing that to him. It is creepy in a stalker sort of way.

This is a ridiculous argument. You don't understand God, as I've said a hundred ka-jillion times by now, so you also don't understand off-shoots of God, such as what it means to 'worship' God.

God is all of life. God is everything. To 'worship' and love God is to love and adore and bask in all of life's grace as best as one can.

What are the good morals in the bible?

Read it yourself. I'm not spoon feeding you, here.

And where in the bible does it say there is a hidden true meaning and that you will find it by applying your personal experiences/observations to it?

Simple common sense dictates that there is a true meaning behind the Bible and that you will find it by applying real life observances/experiences to it.

If you didn't know what communists even were, would you know and understand what the book about lizards was referencing?

Then you can't not believe that the christian bible is true.

I believe the Bible is true, to a point. You are confusing the words 'true' and 'literal' with each other.

You are cherry picking the bible, and adding hidden meanings that you like, and all kinds of excuses to deny that fact that you are not really a christian.

I live my life in a Christ-like manner, therefore, I am a Christian. With all due respect, shut up. You have shown an immense lack of understanding, and inability to cope with, the theology behind the Christian Bible. You can say I 'cherry-pick' it all you like; doing so does not make me any less of a Christian, because I am simply recognizing the falliability of man and the fact that anything he writes is inherrantly falliable, as well. You don't read a book and agree with every single thing the author has to say within it, do you? Exactly.

Furthermore, do you define a patriot as any less than a patriot if he criticizes his government? No, I would think that he is more of a patriot, because he is trying to get something done and change where he finds fault with the current government.

Shit. Jesus Christ Himself is depicted within the Bible as critical of the church!

You are obviously a deist, but you don't believe the bible to be true or accurate, even though you like its morals.

I believe in the lessos taught and the observations made within the Bible.

You claim the supernatural/illogical parts are metaphors, etc so you are not a believer in it, are you? Is Jesus's resurrection a metaphor?

I believe in the message behind Jesus Christ, behind His ressurection, and behind the lessons taught within the Bible. You are confusing 'believe' with 'knowing.'

Who cares about who understands it or not. Real life suffering results (and for believers, eternity as well). That book should at least come with a disclaimer, do not do this in real life. We don't really mean it for real when we say to kill or rule over these or those people.

And again; you would not call someone during the time of slavery out for writing a book about slavery, would you? You wouldn't write a review about that book decrying it's advocation of slavery, would you? You would just acknowledge that that book is out-dated morally, and move on.

No it doesn't. That was to include other additional possible reasons that people might believe in hell, such as those with self-worthiness issues who feel they deserve punishment for some reason and figure there must be one waiting for them, etc.

And what I am saying is that you do not understand the metaphor or message behind 'Hell', so you cannot be expected to understand it's tenants or how one gets there.

I have found Hell to be very real, by the way. I have lived it, and it is quite terrible. But again, you still have no understanding of what Hell or Heaven truly are, so it is quite impossible to discuss them with you until you do.

You have not lived the christian hell.

[/quote]
You do not understand the Christian Hell. You show an enormous misunderstanding, already, of the messages behind the Bible and it's meanings. How do you, an Atheist, know for certain what the Christian Hell is? Understanding what the Christian Hell is requires an understanding of Christianity, which you have shown you do not possess.

You are not even dead yet.

The Bible is all about spirituality, and the lessons one learns throughout life that can be applied to spiritual health, spiritual wellness, and spiritual discipline. To be in Hell, one does not have to physically die; spiritual death can have the same effect, as well. This is what I have experienced. Spiritual death. It is not pleasant.

You don't get to call real life bad times, which everyone gets no matter what one's belief in dities, the christian hell.
Hell in the xtian bible happens after death,

After spiritual death.

and whether you are sent there is determined by what God thinks of what you did and thought while you were alive on Earth. No making shit up, or you are not really a christian.

God is a part of all things. Even you, and even me. That's what one's soul is, the part of the human being most connected to God. This is a Christian belief. This is why, when you do bad things, you feel bad; your soul, the part of you that is most in-tune with God, is punishing you because it knows better than you do what is right and wrong. You have the final say in what your own punishment is, because your soul is in tune with God and knows what is bad or good. When you do good, your soul makes you feel good; when you do bad, your soul makes you feel bad.

Well, the definition of being a Christian is to be Christ-like. That is why it is calld Christianity. So, yes, anyone not acting Christ-like is not a real Christian in the simplest sense of the word.

The only rulebook on how to be christ-like is the christian bible. So, lather rinse repeat.

Not exactly. Being Christ-like means being Christ-like; anyone living on this Earth can discover that leading a Christ-like life is beneficial to one's state of mind, body, and spirit. The Bible is simply a record of that observation.

The Bible is all about the intent. Most books are. Some parts of the Bible are written with the intent of being honest, sincere observations about human nature as it relates to God, the ways in which God works, and God's attributes. Other parts, because of the falliability of man, are written with political control in mind. Man is always looking for ways of controlling other men. Unfortunately, religion is just another of many ways he can do this.