A discussion around family table.

[fr0d0]

Oh dear, you said it anyways, even though it is insane.

Baseless assertion

We are not talking about common sense rules. We are talking about moronic, unfair ones where if you don't think nice thoughts about the person threatening you, you will be tortured forever. Seriously, stop pretending we are talking about good rules.

I've proved to you why these "rules" are not moronic or unfair. You have no argument against that apparently.

God cannot be unjust... or your're not referencing the Judaic Christian God.

See what you are doing here? Your religion is the only right one, and all others are inferior because they are not just. Not only that, but you are backing a god that has been proven bigtime to be unjust.

All theological consideration has merit. I'm open to any ideas, and discriminate against none. the Christian concept happens to be my personal choice and is the subject of my belief. If the concept of a god, as it is with Christian theology, is the embodiment of positivism, then this positivism is self evident. You're summation of an opposite set of values simply can't fit in my scenario. I'm not demeaning other religions at all.

You're allowed to believe or not... that's your freedom - to be an idiot or follow the rules.

No you're not. If you really had that freedom, there wouldn't be the threat of eternal torture as punishment for making the non-favoured-by-god choice. Also, belief is not a choice, unless you are into self-delusion and successful at it to boot. If god wanted us to believe in him, he'd provide clear unquestionable evidence, especially if the eternal future and happiness of his children were at stake, I mean really!

So a person has no freedom to be a criminal by your logic. No freedom to be anything but law abiding.

I certainly don't believe in God out of fear. the threat of eternal punishment and reward mean less than nothing to me. I understand that spiritual life and death affects my life now. And I choose life. I have the complete freedom to choose spiritual death if I wan't to. How that pans out after I'm dead --- I'm sorry... I simply couldn't care less.

How could God giving you no choice to believe in him or not work? The point of Christianity is faith. The point is your complete freedom to choose.

How does your scenario equate to happiness? You're being incredibly egocentric putting human happiness or suffering above the wider interests of the sum of reality.

It's the same with criminal justice - you can choose to be good or choose to be bad and invoke the possibility of punishment. Only difference is... Gods justice is true and absolute. Man's justice is potentially flawed.

If you want to compare the god law system with modern secular criminal justice, god loses bigtime. You don't really want to go there, do you?????

Yep. God is just. God NEVER acts unlawfully. God never murders... only takes life justly. Human justice is seriously and pretty completely flawed in comparison. It's laughable that you think you stand a chance against the concept of goodness versus human achievement towards such. No human endeavour is absolutely perfect. God is absolutely perfect. No contest.

If you can't back up what you're saying then you should STFU. Respectfully

Not when it comes to the many thought crimes of the bible. They are too well known for me to have to prove to you, much less go to the work of searching and collecting them all. It's preferable to me that you instead deny that you believe me. That is less unpleasant than looking up well known shit would be.

You can quote the whole of the skeptics annotated bible if you like. Not one point sticks.

This is a basic truth we're talking about you denying. To that truth, you are choosing rebellion... and then expect no consequences. How dishonest would it be if you were allowed to break the law without consequences? If you understand common sense, you'd have no problem with this.

What truth? There is no evidence at all that it is real. And common sense has nothing to do with it, unlike modern secular law. Bible law is unchanging and forever binding, keeping the cruelties forever on the belief that it must be right even though it doesn't feel right, because god wants it that way, and who are we to question perfect god. At least though, it looks like you are admitting that you follow god-law because you are scared of the penalty, not because you necessarily agree with the morals behind the individual laws.

The truth is the choice between positivity and negativity. You seem to think the choice isn't free. That the inherent negative consequences restrict your freedom to choose negativity. And you think that there's no evidence that this is 'real'? Seems like common sense to me(?)

The morality outlined in the bible is 100% condoned by me. I don't know where you get the idea that I don't agree with it. It does indeed 'feel right' because that's what it is.

I was responding to your claim that god is natural. If you are trying to hint you can't see natural-god by looking at nature, then you are beyond help. Is that what you are trying to say? Trying to get out of answering the dilemma of a natural god not being found anywhere in nature?

I was saying that these are natural laws, and not that God is natural. In my belief, God created this reality, including nature and natural laws. As everything came from God, part of him is in everything... this is just logic. The basic, root concept of God is creator and positive force. Your view of god being the opposite is unsupportable logically and falls flat as soon as you consider it. You don't have to believe in God, and that can be a logically sound position. To try to put it down with such illogic as your espousing is detrimental to your stance on religion.