A discussion around family table.

[Scented Nectar]

Oh dear, you said it anyways, even though it is insane.

Baseless assertion

No. The basis is that it is clearly an insane word game. You can say anything at all, completely making it up, and then say 'see, it's really a metaphor for a metaphor for a metaphor for a....' Cuckoo. Loonytunes. Bring out the funny jacket and soft walls time.

We are not talking about common sense rules. We are talking about moronic, unfair ones where if you don't think nice thoughts about the person threatening you, you will be tortured forever. Seriously, stop pretending we are talking about good rules.

I've proved to you why these "rules" are not moronic or unfair. You have no argument against that apparently.

You've proved no such thing. It would be impossible to prove such unecessary cruelty as being fair. If you really think something you wrote convinced me, what was it?

God cannot be unjust... or your're not referencing the Judaic Christian God.

See what you are doing here? Your religion is the only right one, and all others are inferior because they are not just. Not only that, but you are backing a god that has been proven bigtime to be unjust.

All theological consideration has merit. I'm open to any ideas, and discriminate against none. the Christian concept happens to be my personal choice and is the subject of my belief. If the concept of a god, as it is with Christian theology, is the embodiment of positivism, then this positivism is self evident. You're summation of an opposite set of values simply can't fit in my scenario. I'm not demeaning other religions at all.

You are claiming that your god is always just, and that any unjust god must be some other religion's god. Why are you living in such a free godless society? You should move to a muslim country, as they are currently the best ones at enforcing the nice rules of the Abrahamic god you like so much in their theocratically run countries. As close to biblegod's word as you will find nowadays and it's the same god anyways.

So a person has no freedom to be a criminal by your logic. No freedom to be anything but law abiding.

Not according to your god. When one choice carries a punishment and the other reward, it takes away from pure choice. It influences the decision to favour choosing the one associated with the reward and avoidance of the punishment, instead of being based on the original choice itself. This is not rocket science. Hey, you are free NOT to give me your wallet when I point a gun at you, and if you are smart you probably will give me the wallet. Doesn't make you a criminal though if you say no, run away and I shoot you anyways. I am still the criminal for making you have to have this horrible 'choice'. And you would be quite right to think poorly of my morals for doing this unfair thing to you. Or not, after all, you are accepting that if biblegod diddit, his morals are good, very good.

I certainly don't believe in God out of fear. the threat of eternal punishment and reward mean less than nothing to me.

Then you are in it for the much worse reason of actually liking the main character in the bible. Iccck. You probably shouldn't admit that to too many people. You won't be allowed near disobedient children or in restaurants where people wear multi-fabrics.

I understand that spiritual life and death affects my life now. And I choose life. I have the complete freedom to choose spiritual death if I wan't to. How that pans out after I'm dead --- I'm sorry... I simply couldn't care less.

You should care if you are really a christian. The whole point of your religion is to live in a manner to avoid eternal hellfire and to earn God's loving reward of heaven and his holy company for eternity. Otherwise, what are you sucking up for?

How could God giving you no choice to believe in him or not work? The point of Christianity is faith. The point is your complete freedom to choose.

No. If that were the case, there wouldn't be such a lack of evidence of gods, and such a huge amount of evidence against any and all specific ones, since these things make the choice hugely unfair in favour of the not believing side. It makes it unfair because the human brain will often see the logic and plausibility of things instead of choosing to believe something on faith and in the face of such implausibility it would be stupid to conclude anything other than your magical invisible creator deity who wants humans to behave differently than how he made them to behave is not real. You have to make an effort to convince yourself of something your natural common sense and all the evidence says is a ridiculous concept to consider more than a passing thought of drunken moment's pondering on life. Like my marijuana inspired flower fairies, you know? I'm not about to make an effort to convince myself such a silly thing must be true despite everything pointing against it. I made up the silly concept in giggle moment. And you know what? It has every bit as much credibility as your god, even more since plant and multi-god/spirit worship predated your monotheistic version of the supernatural.

How does your scenario equate to happiness? You're being incredibly egocentric putting human happiness or suffering above the wider interests of the sum of reality.

Yeah, how dare I put the real life happiness and welfare of my fellow humans before the emotional need for telepathic reassurance of a magical creature I've never seen or even met because he might get mad if I don't.

Yep. God is just. God NEVER acts unlawfully. God never murders... only takes life justly. Human justice is seriously and pretty completely flawed in comparison. It's laughable that you think you stand a chance against the concept of goodness versus human achievement towards such. No human endeavour is absolutely perfect. God is absolutely perfect. No contest.

Wow!!!!! You are a scary person. I hope you've truly convinced yourself of all that so your god doesn't punish you. If he knows that you don't really approve of his morals and are just trying to trick both yourself and him, he'll send you to hell anyways. No, don't worry. Hell's not real.

The truth is the choice between positivity and negativity. You seem to think the choice isn't free. That the inherent negative consequences restrict your freedom to choose negativity. And you think that there's no evidence that this is 'real'? Seems like common sense to me(?)

Your common sense is nothing more than a what-if-it's-true fear. Anyways, your god would not torture you for letting yourself experience the very natural negative thoughts we all have, would he? If such thoughts offended him that much, he wouldn't have created them in us, much less punish us for having what he gave us. Unless your god is a sociopathic lunatic. Is he?

The morality outlined in the bible is 100% condoned by me. I don't know where you get the idea that I don't agree with it. It does indeed 'feel right' because that's what it is.

So, if there were no legal penalties against enforcing the following, can I assume you would jump at the chance to kill me for choosing to have sex outside of the 'marriage' I am sold into as a child, killed again for any bisexual adventures I may have had, and killed again for doing something you consider work on your sabbath, and killed again for wearing both cotton and hemp at the same time? I don't think you'd be my first choice of what internet friends I'd like to meet in real life. You want to kill most of the people in the world. I hope you are being kept away from dangerous machinery and bomb materials. After all, even with the modern secular rules to somewhat protect me from criminals like you, you probably think following your godlaws takes priority over the human ones.

I was saying that these are natural laws, and not that God is natural.

Word games again. It is but it isn't.

In my belief, God created this reality, including nature and natural laws. As everything came from God, part of him is in everything... this is just logic.

No, it's your faith. Stop calling it logic. Faith is the opposite of using logic to come to your decisions. Stop pretending to be using logic.

The basic, root concept of God is creator and positive force. Your view of god being the opposite is unsupportable logically and falls flat as soon as you consider it.

Then how come you can't prove this claim or even outline the logic you say you are using?

You don't have to believe in God, and that can be a logically sound position. To try to put it down with such illogic as your espousing is detrimental to your stance on religion.

No, it's detrimental to your stance on religion. Logically derived conclusions never go against my religious beliefs because I don't have any religious beliefs. There is nothing I believe on faith alone, so there are no faith beliefs there to debunk with logic. Also, note that if you were to actually prove any religious/supernatural claim at all, it would no longer require faith to believe it, but would use logic/evidence from then on for its belief.