A discussion around family table.

[Scented Nectar]

If the lessons of nonharmful behaviour being deserving of death at the hands of followers, and other equally horrible lessons are real, then the bible should be considered hate literature.

This is not the message of God, and only parts of the Bible propogate it as such. These parts of the Bible are wrong.

Then everything but all the 'begats' has to go, and even those are pretty suspect since people just did not live to 900 years old or whatever back then.

The lessons are the underlying metaphor. And said lessons are the teachings of God, represented as accurately as possible by man.

You have no way of knowing that God is not a metaphor (like for evil and abuse of authority) and so therefore the teachings are metaphors too, like maybe for evil and cruel laws we should watch out for. How about that interpretation? You can't prove otherwise. God is a metaphor for evil that will trick you and tell you it's good.

The message is not unclear if you have already observed it's truth in the real world. I am not following the Bible, I am following God; it just so happens that the source I most often refer to in regards to a fixed reference for God's nature is the Bible.

If the bible is a fixed reference to you, then you ARE following the bible, and therefore the bible's version of what god is.

Did you completely ignore my statements about backwards application? The process goes like this; apply real life observations to the Bible-->Bible makes more sense-->apply the Bible to real life.

Lots of deaths and misery have resulted from people doing just that with your biblebook.

The Bible itself is not a necessity, it is simply there for those who truly have found belief to have a fixed reference when attempting to understand God. We don't need it, but it helps every now and then.

I'm glad you have no 'need' for it, in the food and water sense, because I think the book should be mega-mocked, stuck on a pole and displayed in the town square, and certainly not used for guidance. Too much very real harm has been done because of it, and for much too long.

What lessons? Really, what? Specifically. And exclusive to the bible please, eg, almost every religion and nonreligious philosophy has some variation of the don't do to others empathy rule.

Exactly my point. Why do the lessons I've learned have to be exclusive to the Bible? They can be learned merely by walking the path of life and observing the way it works around you. The do to others empathy rule is a prime example of this. It works. It can be applied to real life. The Bible is documenting that, not setting out to invent that rule.

Yeah, yeah, that's nice, so, um, about those lessons, what lessons specifically has the bible taught you? You are claiming to be a christian, so it's the book you hold above the others I'm talking about. It doesn't matter that some of the other religions and philosophies out there share some of the ideas/lessons with you. And I am hoping that those lessons you learned outweigh the horrible crimes committed in the name of that same book which has helped you so much, but even if they don't, I am curious as to what they are, preferable in the order of their importance to you.

Also, I hope you don't just say something like, well it's different for everyone.

Don't worry, I wont.

But you are if all the lessons are individual and not clearly the same for everyone.

Uh uh, we are not talking about a self help book here,

Yes, in a way actually, we are.

Then in that case, I expect it to do more help than harm, at the very least a neutral no-effect. The writings of the abrahamic god followers (of which the xtian bible is a part of) have caused serious fucking damage, and are continuing to do so, bigtime!

No, we are not talking about a set of laws or commands to be enforced. We are talking about a set of observations on human nature and the laws that apply there. For example, the scientific law of gravity is recorded as being true in science text books everywhere, because we can observe gravity and we know it applies to everyone and everything. Similarly, the Bible is a reference for the laws of human nature and God, and their effects on man as he walks about through his life and encounters certain scenarios.

I'll consider accepting your claim if you first prove to me that we can observe your god's effects on humans, which of course must also show that the god you claim as the causative element actually exists and is causing that effect. And I'm not talking about the psychological effects of having the concept or belief in a god, but the actual effects of a god itself. Then I will want to know why I should believe that this god is the same one the abrahamic religions refer to, and then I will consider it similar to how I consider documents that refer to gravity.

The writers meant for it to be taken quite seriously and factually.

The existence of God and His effects on the world, sure. Just like the writers of a scientific text book, when writing about gravity, use made up stories to demonstrate how gravity works.

No, you don't get to decide that for everyone. The bible does NOT say the god parts and effect descriptions are true, but the rest is not. And science books don't tend to use made up stories, unless of course it is prefaced by something like, 'the following fictional example is used here to display how such a resulting reaction of object weight on various shelf materials in relation to gravity's effects, and how they might take place in a household environment', etc.

You only want it to be metaphorical because you are trying to make it fit into your own personal life and morals and stuff.

No, I want it to be metaphorical, because it clearly is metaphorical.

Ok, fine, but I still can't take your word on it, and I still want to see where the bible makes that clear to me, not you. If it's a holy book, it should at least be clear about what it's messages and facts/metaphors are.

And what particular metaphorical depiction(s) of God are you referring to? An example here would be nice.

I'll quote fr0do from a completely different topic here:

God is one. (Deut. 6:4, Romans 3:30, Galatians 3:20, James 2:19)
God is holy. (Psalm 99:9)
God is spirit. (John 4:24)
God is light. (1 John 1:5)
God is love. (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16)

Hmm, all this time I thought one was just another number, love an emotion, and light a physics thing that I don't quite understand due to never having studied it much. Hang on a minute, I have to go turn on the God because it's kind of dark in here, and by the way, I just Goood that new painting you have on the wall, who made it? Teacher, the answer to 7x3 is twentyGod. Yikes, I think for the sake of debating about religions, I will stick to the part where God is a superbeing who created everything, is all loving, and omnipotent, and wants humans to do certain unecessary things such as think thoughts of praise about him, and wants them to do other things too, like help him fight the evil devil he created.

Because they had observed Him already in their daily lives, and did their best to record the lessons and experiences they had had in a way that others would understand. Once more, I go back to the gravity example on this one. You wouldn't write in a science text book "One time, I was on my way to work, and I saw an apple fall off of a tree" as proof of gravity or as a demonstration of how gravity works.

I'm not a scientist, but a science book would more likely have something like: Here at the Research Lab where the author of this report works, we observed that 100% of the apples in our samples (100,000 subject apple trees with an average of 150 apples each) fell at the moment they were no longer supported by the tree branch. This was observed by a team of 10 researchers, recorded on video as well as stop-motion still photography, and the floor onto which the apples fell had a scale which recorded the weight difference when they landed. Air friction slowdown was seen and recorded, in relation to the apples' individual sizes and shapes aligning completely without deviation to the mathematics of such friction, blah blah.

Let's go by what it actually says.

I am. You are not.

You've already admitted that you put it through your personal interpretation of what you think are metaphors and what they represent. I will stick to the pre-additional-filter stuff that the actual book itself says.

If you agree with biblegod's morals and laws to follow on earth, then you are a threat to my life and well being and basic freedom.

If I am taking it literally.

Even if you don't, the lessons to be evil to others is still there, the vengence, the justified persecutions, the slaughter, the slavery, etc.

Anyways, even your Jesus said something about not abolishing these old laws, but to do the opposite and 'fulfill' them, make them happen, enforce them. Even gave shit to someone for not killing their disobedient children somewhere in there.

Yes, that is true, that is written in the Bible. I've not read that particular part, so I'm taking your word for it here. And I also trust you have complete knowledge and understanding of the context and meaning within which all this was said? Or the context within which it was written?

Can you think of ANY context where killing disobedient children should be the rule? WTF?????

Better yet, you wouldn't expect a book written during the time of slavery to understand completely why slavery is wrong, would you?

I would if that book were claiming to be the path to happiness, goodness, and truth and change for the better, etc.

No, it goes further back than the monotheistic Abrahamic god.

Of this I am aware.

Then why do you worship a monotheistic god, instead of the original worship of many gods, or even the worship of things other than gods, like ancestors, animals spirits, etc.?

There is a theory that the Adam and Eve story represented the judeochristian takeover of the previous gnostic and other religions, Eve representing goddess worship common in many of them, and the forbidden tree of life representing the political control over possible earlier shamanic use of cannabis (the jews restricted the oil-anointing and smoke-inhaling of 'cannabosm' to priests and kings they approved of, and the xtians later stopping it altogether), etc. It's plausible as a theory for how the religious misogyny of the last few thousand years or so came about.

I seriously don't understand what this has to do with anything at all. Seriously.

For one thing, it shows that maybe the lizard tale wasn't about commies at all, but maybe about something completely different, and your head made it fit to what you wanted it to be. To you, the Adam and Eve story probably represents the battle against sin, but maybe it just represents one religion taking power from another religion and telling their followers that the old religion's gods were evil through a story. Just one of many many interpretations, and of course that means many or most will not have the commies as being the metaphor's meaning in their lizard story.

But even that all goes back further. Xtianity doesn't have it's own starting point.

Except, you know, Christ.

Then, you are claiming that some guy named Jesus Christ was really God. In other words, here you are taking the bible literally. The prediction of a coming messiah happened long before the xtian branching off 2000 years ago. The church found it politically and financially profitable to claim that it was really happening and that they are the right religion to follow. The details on whether a faked death/resurrection occurred, or whether it was completely just written fictually about a hundred years later are sketchy, but either way, it was very beneficial to the church's agenda of being the next theocracy. It worked too!

There is no need to add a god-filter to the world. No need at all.

I am not 'adding a god-filter' to the world. I am observing the world through belief and faith- in myself, in others, and in thsi world around me- and finding the evidence of God all around me in doing so. I am adding belief to the world, and finding that it has accurate and beneficial results.

Ok, so.... where is that evidence? What was shown to be accurate and how. Why would you need faith in observing anything? Doesn't that skew the results in favour of your predetermined faithbelief?

One example, however, would be that I have found indication of what love is and experienced it's existence, and have discovered it to be coinsiding with what God is meant to be as well. Remember:

God is love. (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16)

All that tells me is that you experienced love, not that an invisible universe creator exists.

God is all of life. God is everything. To 'worship' and love God is to love and adore and bask in all of life's grace as best as one can.

Nonsense, I bask and whatever in life without any need for a god or gods, so why would a person need an invisible friend to enjoy life to their best?

What are the good morals in the bible?

Read it yourself. I'm not spoon feeding you, here.

You're going to have to. I look and look, but can't find anything but shit in that book. Even the heroes who are portrayed as being really good and admirable (and the only ones considered worthy of saving by god) are awful people, like the sexual exploiters of their own children, Lot and Noah. Since you probably haven't actually read the bible, let me fill you in. To protect some visiting strangers to town, Lot offered up his virgin daughters to be raped by the male townfolk, and Noah got drunk and had sex with his own son.

And where in the bible does it say there is a hidden true meaning and that you will find it by applying your personal experiences/observations to it?

Simple common sense dictates that there is a true meaning behind the Bible and that you will find it by applying real life observances/experiences to it.

Explain this common sense please. I'm not seeing it. Maybe your god made me stupid, in which case would you be charitable please and explain this common sense to me, displaying clearly the hidden meaning?

Shit. Jesus Christ Himself is depicted within the Bible as critical of the church!

He was depicted as being slightly critical of the church that the new christ version was trying to take over from. The newer one kept most of the older one's dogmas to use as their own.

You claim the supernatural/illogical parts are metaphors, etc so you are not a believer in it, are you? Is Jesus's resurrection a metaphor?

I believe in the message behind Jesus Christ, behind His ressurection, and behind the lessons taught within the Bible. You are confusing 'believe' with 'knowing.'

I like the sentiment behind Hindu reluctance to hurt animals, but it does not make me a believer in their goddesses and gods. I would not call myself a Hindu.

And again; you would not call someone during the time of slavery out for writing a book about slavery, would you? You wouldn't write a review about that book decrying it's advocation of slavery, would you? You would just acknowledge that that book is out-dated morally, and move on.

Sounds good, I agree. Let's dump the bible and move on. It's 2010 people.

You do not understand the Christian Hell. You show an enormous misunderstanding, already, of the messages behind the Bible and it's meanings. How do you, an Atheist, know for certain what the Christian Hell is? Understanding what the Christian Hell is requires an understanding of Christianity, which you have shown you do not possess.

Just because you call yourself a christian, does not mean you get to make up stuff about what their rulebook says. Hell happens after physical death and god-judgement if that judgement is not in your favour. It is eternal and it is all agony.

The Bible is all about spirituality, and the lessons one learns throughout life that can be applied to spiritual health, spiritual wellness, and spiritual discipline. To be in Hell, one does not have to physically die; spiritual death can have the same effect, as well. This is what I have experienced. Spiritual death. It is not pleasant.

Oh you poor sufferer. The bible says nothing about meaning spiritual 'death' whatever the fuck that is, I mean what has 'died' exactly? But anyways, your personal spiritual self growth traumas aside, the bible teaches that the after death&judgement hell is real, not just symbolic of your earthtime sadnesses.

You don't get to call real life bad times, which everyone gets no matter what one's belief in dities, the christian hell. Hell in the xtian bible happens after death,

After spiritual death.

Where does it say that?

and whether you are sent there is determined by what God thinks of what you did and thought while you were alive on Earth. No making shit up, or you are not really a christian.

God is a part of all things. Even you, and even me. That's what one's soul is, the part of the human being most connected to God. This is a Christian belief. This is why, when you do bad things, you feel bad; your soul, the part of you that is most in-tune with God, is punishing you because it knows better than you do what is right and wrong. You have the final say in what your own punishment is, because your soul is in tune with God and knows what is bad or good. When you do good, your soul makes you feel good; when you do bad, your soul makes you feel bad.

You are still making shit up. When you feel bad about something, you will simply feel bad until the situation is either fixed or far enough in the past that it no longer affects you. Has nothing to do with gods and souls and being punished for not knowing right and wrong. Thinking it's about gods and souls means that you will not get around to figuring out the real reasons you are feeling bad.