A discussion around family table.

[tackattack]

I appreciate your patience in my responce, I had limited access yesterday.

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To save time I'll bold what's relevant and comment in red

Good is of course relative, but I think all of it's good for a read, I've read worse. Do I need to quote all the exploits of Jesus/ disciples doing good deeds, healing, helping, filling the needs of the outcast and needy?

Sure, if these good acts cancel out the bad ones. They say Hitler treated dogs well, you know. Does that make everything else he did ok?Please list Jesus' bad deeds since you at least admit he had some good deeds and I'll respond, but only if you're genuinely intersted in hearing the response.

Summed up better than I could ever do, here is a page from http://www.evilbible.com/what_would_jesus_do.htm I'm not sure what bible version they are using. What Would Jesus Do?

Advocate child abuse and murder amongst many other cruelties.

Christians are always claiming, “he’s the lamb”, “our savior”, “the king of peace”, “the embodiment of love”, amongst the many other names they associate with a loving, merciful nature. Jesus a nice guy? Not in my book. Nor in any other person’s who is capable of compassion and rationality. Let’s examine who the hell the Jesus character really is. These verses will show not only is Jesus’ “loving” nature a joke but so are the Christians who worship him. Jesus’ real mission to come to earth:

Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has “come not to send peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34

Jesus says, “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword lf you love your father, mother, sister, brother, more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. “The real beauty of this verse is that Jesus demands people truly love him more then they love their own family. I ask you how can we love someone that we can not see or interact with? Love is an emotion pertaining to physical existence not to faithful ideologies, yet God threatens you with Death just because your love for your mother maybe stronger than your love for him. Matthew 10:34

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus. “Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." Matthew 10:21

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. Matthew 5:17


Jesus advocates murder and death:

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. Matthew 11:20

Jesus, whose clothes are dipped in blood, has a sharp sword sticking out of his mouth. Thus attired, he treads the winepress of the wrath of God. (The winepress is the actual press that humans shall be put into so that we may be ground up.) Revelations 19:13-15

The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest of us the unchosen will be killed with the sword of Jesus. “An all the fowls were filled with their flesh.” Revelations 19:20-21


Jesus says he is the only way to salvation yet he purposely disillusions us so that we will go to hell:

Jesus explains that the reason he speaks in parables is so that no one will understand him, “lest . . . they . . . should understand . . . and should be converted, and I should heal them.” Matthew 13:10-15

Jesus explains why he speaks in parables to confuse people so they will go to hell. Mark 4:11-12


Jesus advocates child abuse:

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:4-7

Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he’ll give your a big reward. Jesus asks that his followers abandon their children to follow him. To leave your child is abuse, it’s called neglect, pure and simple. Matthew 19:29

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark 7:9


A few other things about Jesus:

Jesus says that those who have been less fortunate in this life will have it even worse in the life to come. Mark 4:25

Jesus sends the devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. Clearly Jesus could have simply sent the devils out, yet he chose instead to place them into pigs and kill them. This is called animal abuse. Mark 5:12-13

Jesus kills a fig tree for not bearing figs, even though it was out of season. Jesus must not be as smart as Christians would have us believe, for he was retarded enough to do something this silly. You’d think the son of god (god incarnate) would know that trees don’t bear fruit in dry season. Mark 11:13

Luke 12:47 Jesus okays beating slaves.Do any of the good things he did outweigh the bad things to the point where they cancel it out?

The court must not kill anybody on circumstantial evidence Ex. 23:7

It actually says "Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked." Where do you see anything about circumstantial evidence? Maybe you should stop listening to the preacher man and read the thing yourself. So far, that quote fully upholds killing people for bible 'crimes'.Is it really Gymanstics to say that you shouldn't kill the innocent? innocent in a court of law requires solid evidence

Since the bible is thoroughly immoral in what it considers innocent, righteous and wicked, all it is saying is that that is still so. There is nothing about evidence being circumstantial or not, or about evidence at all in this verse.

The court must not punish anybody who was forced to do a crime Deut. 22:26

It says nothing of the sort. It says "But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:" They are referring to not punishing a woman for being a rape victim only if she is betrothed. If she is not, then she is still murdered by the godlovers. (YLT)25 “But if the man meets the engaged woman out in the country, and he rapes her, then only the man must die. 26 Do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no crime worthy of death. She is as innocent as a murder victim. 27 Since the man raped her out in the country, it must be assumed that she screamed, but there was no one to rescue her." That's all that is said, she shall not be put to death.. innocent as a murder victim.

Let's use the KJV since as far as I know, that is the oldest English version around these days: Deut 22:13-29 is one big kill-non-virgins/rape-victims/consenting-lovers festival (especially if the raped ones don't scream due to a hand over their mouth). If a man tries to get his wife killed by slander, he will get vaguely chastised and fined. God, your god sucks in the personality department! Bigtime sexual hangups/confusions too.
13If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
14And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
15Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:
16And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;
17And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.
18And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;
19And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
20But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
23If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
24Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
25But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
26But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
27For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.
28If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Judge righteously Lev. 19:15

That completely upholds the immoral laws, since they are considered righteous and god-commanded. "Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour."(YLT)15 “Do not twist justice in legal matters by favoring the poor or being partial to the rich and powerful. Always judge people fairly." No it doesn't it's talking about favoritism

It's not the wealth part that was presented to me, the righteous part was. I simply quoted the entire verse. Anyways, being cruel/immoral to everyone rather than just some people doesn't really make it all better, you know?

The court must not execute through a majority of one; at least a majority of two is required Ex. 23:2

It actually says "Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment", the last part sounding like an order to not speak out against what the multitude have judged.(YLT)2 “You must not follow the crowd in doing wrong. When you are called to testify in a dispute, do not be swayed by the crowd to twist justice." Are we going by what it sounds like or what it says?

In other words, and I know you like other words, don't join any anti-cruelty crowds or speak out against god ordered cruelty to stop the (in)'justice'. I get it.

Not to press them for payment if you know they don't have it Ex. 22:24

That is the same verse as above. Should I infer that after feeding the dead body to the poor, to tell them not to bother about paying you back someday?Should be vs. 26-27 "26 If you take your neighbor’s cloak as security for a loan, you must return it before sunset. 27 This coat may be the only blanket your neighbor has. How can a person sleep without it? If you do not return it and your neighbor cries out to me for help, then I will hear, for I am merciful."

What is the punishment for the meanness of taking someone's sleeping blanket as collateral for a loan? Nothing. God simply says he will hear the cry (and then brags about being gracious),

Not to insult or harm anybody with words Lev. 25:17

Good thing it does not actually say that, since that would destroy all free speech, but let's see what it really says. "Ye shall not therefore oppress one another; but thou shalt fear thy God:for I am the LORD your God." Nothing indicating what would be oppressive, so it must be concluded that they mean anything against the god commands. The second part is a command to have an emotion, fear. Do you often love people you fear? I don't, but then again, I've never had Stockholm's Syndrome.There is part of that verse with some arbitrary fear thrown in, but you're implying that only opression of God's commands when we all feel obression is bad

I'm not implying anything. I meant exactly what I wrote. You bring up a good point though, making me wonder if there is any type of oppression that your god does not actively condone/order. Let's see, sexual oppression check, child abuse check, nationality oppression check, religious oppression check, am I leaving anything out? What nonbible oppression are you referring to?

Should be Deteronomy 25:16 (NLT) "16 All who cheat with dishonest weights and measures are detestable to the Lord your God." ALthough I agree the exodus verse is about destruction of people with differing beliefs

So I guess the nice law about not cheating with weights makes up for slaughter/genocide? I'm looking for examples of stuff in the bible so so so good, that the bad shit is insignificant in comparison. Can you provide that? Also, deut 25:16 is:
16For all that do such things, and all that do unrighteously, are an abomination unto the LORD thy God.

That was supposed to read the NIV not KJV sorry. You're still denying it says the word... stop arguing the semantics. The Bible didn't originally say homosexual, it got put into the Bible and was popular for a long time. Now people are getting back to the meaning of the words and other version are becoming more popular, especially among Biblical hermeneutics. [/color]

Why did you bring up new, recently written bibles that use the word homosexual as proof that it said so 2000 years ago? It didn't. Stick with the oldest of the English versions. That's what all the changed ones started out from (in this language, that is).

Whether people suffer or not in that afterlife is a matter of speculation. It's not that God would chose to kill their soul, it either exists or doesn't. If it does and you're not prepared, you get what you get.[/color]

It's not speculation to a xtian. God punishes or rewards during the afterlife based on what you do in this one. It has nothing to do with whether there actually is some sort of afterlife.

I am attempting to show you that yes there is bad, but it's outweighed by the good, especially in the instruction dept.

Ok, when are you going to do that?

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Frankly I'm too tired tonight to go over every verse with a direct response. I will absolutley assume that all the verses quoted are exact and the version doesn't really matter usually (sometimes ver 34 in one version due to translation ends up at verse 36 in other versions). I will consent that completely at face value The Bible God is written as an egomaniacle tyrant. I consent that some of what Jesus says at face value can be seen as condoning, murder, child abuse, slavery, etc. I completely agre and can see the perspective that when looked at objectively and at face value there is little merit in the stories or historicity of the Bibe. I'm not going to say you're not reading it right, or that you need the Holy Spirit as a translator.

Everything when initially read I suppose is attempted to be read as unbiased as possible and at face value. However for theists I will attempt to explain a general perspective and point out some biases if that's ok. After you read something objectively you apply it subjectively from your perspective and then interpret the meaning, relate the stories, put yourself in the writer(s) shoes, etc. You can't do that, and take it seriously, without first believing in the plausibility of said events. A Christian (IMO)comes from the perspecive of "Because of expereience in my reality I believe in the plausibility of God" or "I have Faith in God's existence" or a mix of both. That being said when they read the Bible, they apply it subjectively. If this is done as unbiasedly as possible, meaning and perspective is gained that an atheist can't obtain. It would require absolute suspension on their stance on God's existence, or it can be seen as nothing but absolute fiction. If that's yoour stance you're entitles to it, but if I have any more questions like "Why does your Bible God hate women?" I'm just going to say that from my perspective he doesn't and leave it at that. As far as the historicity of the Bible, I'm definately no cholar in that respect, min and one of our authors on here have done tons of research on this. They're just analying parts of the Bible that are verifiable, butthe Bible is still written from multiple perspectives and I personally think it's too subjective to qualify as evidence that something happened. However enough corroborating accounts does lend to the crediblity of an event (hence my beliefs that Jesus existed).

First I'll quote then comment (I did read and I like the article you posted btw):
"I ask you how can we love someone that we can not see or interact with?"
1-This is presuming that you have nothing to interact with, which is the whole purpose behind the Holy Spirit.

"Love is an emotion pertaining to physical existence not to faithful ideologies..."
2-Love is either a subjective human emotion, or an act of self-sacrifice within physical existence that has implication on an after-life (thus ideology related), depending on your context. The author and you frequently juxtapose them.

"To leave your child is abuse..."
3-To abandon your child is abuse, is a parent who dies a child abuser? Is a mother who can't take care of a child and gives them to the grandparents a child abuser? Is a mother who leaves an abusive relationship, but ensure the child's necessities and well-being a child abuser? No of course not.

"Do any of the good things he did outweigh the bad things to the point where they cancel it out?"
4- Good does not outweigh bad. There is duality in humanity, both good and bad. They don't cancel out they balance out. Jesus, IMO is unbalanced due to the lack of bad. This is what leads to the Christian notion of Jsus' divinity.

"being cruel/immoral to everyone rather than just some people doesn't really make it all better, you know?"
5-Of course not. What you're calling cruelty, which Im trying very hard to explain, is not only self-imposed and unnecessary, not any more cuel than not ensuring everyone has a free ticket to disney land, when you're passing them out.

6-I'm detecting less outright attacks which is great. I still don't think you're attempting to see the other side of it, not that you need to. If you'd rather leave it at you Christians worship Satan we can leave it at that. I don't see the conversation progressing though until you're intellectually willing to attempt a different perspective.