A discussion around family table.

[Scented Nectar]

I will consent that completely at face value The Bible God is written as an egomaniacle tyrant. I consent that some of what Jesus says at face value can be seen as condoning, murder, child abuse, slavery, etc. I completely agre and can see the perspective that when looked at objectively and at face value there is little merit in the stories or historicity of the Bibe. I'm not going to say you're not reading it right, or that you need the Holy Spirit as a translator.

Then what are we debating here? It all boils down to 'when god says yes, he really means no', if the real and opposite meaning are all hidden from face value. Everything I argue refers to what the biblebook actually says, not what some of it's followers pretend it to really mean.

"I ask you how can we love someone that we can not see or interact with?"
1-This is presuming that you have nothing to interact with, which is the whole purpose behind the Holy Spirit.

Your holy spirit is an emotion. It's the imaginary friend who gives you love and appreciates the love you give him. Obviously a pleasant feeling emotion, probably somewhat addictive, but nothing real about it, other than it being an emotion/concept.

"Do any of the good things he did outweigh the bad things to the point where they cancel it out?"
4- Good does not outweigh bad. There is duality in humanity, both good and bad. They don't cancel out they balance out. Jesus, IMO is unbalanced due to the lack of bad. This is what leads to the Christian notion of Jsus' divinity.

In a guide book inspired by your can-only-do-good god, there should be no bad at all. When is he going to fill in all those gaps he left? All those bad thing gaps that you think are simply a state of being without god?

"being cruel/immoral to everyone rather than just some people doesn't really make it all better, you know?"
5-Of course not. What you're calling cruelty, which Im trying very hard to explain, is not only self-imposed and unnecessary, not any more cuel than not ensuring everyone has a free ticket to disney land, when you're passing them out.

We weren't talking about a trip to Disney Land. We were talking about an trip to flee hideous laws that kill people for noncrimes. We are talking about a trip to save their lives. Why would any god want to ensure that not everyone has a free ticket to this?

I still don't think you're attempting to see the other side of it, not that you need to. If you'd rather leave it at you Christians worship Satan we can leave it at that. I don't see the conversation progressing though until you're intellectually willing to attempt a different perspective.

You mean that you want me to become a believer through self-deception (faith, it's often called). Are you here in hopes of sharing the good word of god to us unfortunate nonbelievers? Why doesn't your god just let us know about him himself? I'm getting the idea he has some communication issues.

Which of course, makes me think of one of my favourite youtubes about people trying to 'save' other people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ttaq39-4yCs