A discussion around family table.

[Scented Nectar]

1- Then you're being intellectually dishonest, IMO. Although I will fully admit that this post was the least smarmy, clearest and seemingly open conversational post we've had yet. Cheers for more to come.

What's dishonest about what I wrote? I'm not lying at all. Don't get too happy about my lack of rudeness, as that state of being without rudeness is always overcome by me eventually. Hell is a state of being without rudeness, you know.

2-If you insist on your weights and measures/ canceling out here you go http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/good/long.html [broken link fixed - SN] Let me know how those numbers turn out.

That list does not cancel out any of the horrible bible commands, such as those to slaughter and enslave. Most in fact back those laws up, such as not killing, since death sentences for 'crimes' are not considered murder, and laws against freedom of sexuality such as killing 'adulterers' are still there, right on that supposedly good stuff list. There are a few nice suggestions to feed the poor and don't cheat in business, but that's nothing. Are there any particular ones on that page you think actually make up for the bad? That's what I want to see, not a few petty or vague nicey things which pale compared to the shit in the bible.

3- I can let you know clearly that your subjective experiences aren't something I share. I wouldn't add adjectives like crazy, stupid, ignorant, closed-minded, silly or foolish to the word claim. If I had questions I'd ask them respectfully and with an open mind. Your belief in fairies doesn't force me to accept anything. You believe it's true, that's great.. it has nothing to do with my view of reality until it presents itself or it's evidence to me. I can't disprove any of your subjective experisnces. If you live your life without infringing on anyone else's freedoms and you make a positive influsence on society; If you handle reality logically and rationally; it's far more likely that you have insight that I do not, rather than you're delusional.

Then you are giving flowers fairies more respect and credibility than they have earned. By default you are extending this to the belief, probably because you think faith is an admirable thing. You must think that or you wouldn't do it, since faith is illogical and counterproductive to any and all truths searched for. It just doesn't make sense to pre-decide what the answer is going to be, not if one is searching for the real answers. Faith should clue you in to the fact that reality, logic and rationality are NOT part of the picture.

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Scented Nectar the reason you can say what you wish about God is the freewill He has given mankind.

What is the purpose of this free will? If the outcome of it will lead to your god deciding to torture everyone who uses it to choose anything he doesn't like, then isn't it like me building a highway, letting a kid wander onto it, and not stopping it? When the price of the wrong choice is eternal torture, only a sadist will force this choice on others. If your god loved you, he would take away your choice to do the things that would get you into such eternal trouble. Just like I would take away the choice of a little kid about to wander onto the highway or in front of a train. If your god simply wants to filter out the 'deserving' from the 'unworthy', then he could simply wiggle his nose and the bad ones would just disappear. Why would he need to punish anyone? Eternal punishment means you don't even get the chance to learn a lesson and try things over. Why would your god keep the dead alive just to punish them?

If God were who you claimed Him to be you would surely be toast by now.

When I refer to your god, I go by what your rulebook the bible says about him. It's not my claims. If I were to make up deities, they would be nice and happy ones, moral, and never harmful or torturey like your god. By the way, according to your rulebook, your god will be torturing me after I die, not right now, while never stopping me from doing the things which he's decided he should torture me for.

I know you do not claim God at all however you can not disprove Him and that said if He does exsist then your wrong because you are not toast yet.

Then you should believe in my gods, just in case. If you let even one houseplant die during your life, you will end up being tortured forever by the Parkinglot Paving Pixies (kinda like your devil) where you will forever be a weed in its dying painful moments of wilted agony, moments that will never end. Unless you repent by planting 10 trees for every plant you've killed. If you've ever used Round-Up, you may as well give up, you're going to the parking lot for sure. Also, just in case, you better believe in all the other religions out there, both the types that have already been thought up, and even the ones which haven't yet. Just in case. Maybe you should avoid stepping on sidewalk cracks too, just in case. Don't drink water close to bedtime, just in case you need to get up in the middle of the night which is when the boogey man rules, just in case he's real. Better get some scientology auditing too, just in case thetan parasites are real. Just in case, you know? Unless of course you can disprove any of these things.

As far as hell is concerned it is a real place but far different than you think. It's a place where you will be allowed to carry on as you do on this forum, hating God with all your being and never able to love again.

No atheist hates god, since he doesn't exist. We tend to hate what believers say their gods are commanding, and if your god did exist, he would be hated because of his shitty personality and cruelty. But luckily he doesn't exist, except in your mind. You might be mistaking opinions about a hateful fictional character with the hatred of a real person/being. My ability to love is fully intact, by the way. Just because I don't love an imaginary being who is ordering me to love him under threat of torture, does not mean love isn't there when it comes to real people and life. The only emotional state you will find missing from atheists is blind faith.

This is with out a doubt more awful than anyone can conceive. A burning hell is something one can imagine and probably the worst thing one could imagine as a punishment. Just responding to some of the things you have stated in this discussion and somethings to think about if you wish.

I don't need to think about it. If it were real, sure, I'd have to think about how best to avoid the nastiness your god threatens me with, cuz the gun would be to my head. Guess what? Here's some good news for you. God is not real, and neither is his hell threat. Now go out there and enjoy life, love authentically rather than by command, and do the things YOU feel are moral and good. Then you will find a 'heaven' of not being enslaved by an imaginary being and the organizations that claim to speak for it.