Are Theists Illogical for Believing in God?

[The_Flying_Skeptic]

So there is no necessary relation between arithmetic and physical reality. There is no rule that says things in other universes should be countable at all.

why not? what reason is there that things in other universes wouldn't be countable?

The reason is that logic and reality are two seperate things. I know that this is not easy to understand and that it even might evoke some feelings of immediate rejection, but hear me out. I will try to explain.

That reality and logic are two separate things is what I've been saying the whole time. just because a universe is made up of just beach balls doesn't mean that it isn't 'logical' but it's only 'logically possible' under the axiom or premise that (basically) 'anything is possible'. (response to: "A universe consisting entirely of giant pink beachballs is logically possible. said Caecilian")

Fiirstly, logic is a rule based framework based on a set of relatively few basic assumptions (called axioma) and basic oprations with specific characteristics. It must be consistent for one thing. But nowhere in a logical framework you will come across a conclusion that it necessarily applies to our universe.

yeah, i totally agree. i have not been saying that 'anything' necessarily applies to all universes besides logic. you should be able to form conclusions based on axioms in any universe. in any universe, you should be able to apply logics thus there is no such thing as an 'illogical universe'. give me an example of a hypothetical 'illogical universe'. i guess I have to bold my request since you denied it in your response. maybe you don't understand what i mean by an illogical universe: a universe or a space where logical arguments may not be created. Ramsin shows his understanding of the meaning of an illogical universe when he says "In all universes, you can reason and use your intellect and therefore think and deduce logically."

That it applies to our reality. So how is it possible that our reality follows some logic at all? In fact nobody knows. Several geniuses have tried to explain but did not succeed. Einstein marked it as the real wonder of our universe. So when you look at it from this perspective, it is not so obvious why things in our universe should be countable at all.

as you said, reality and logics are separate. and i never said there is a reason (synonymous to the belief held by theists that there is a 'reason' for our existence. [nevermind this possibly confusing reference.]) why things are countable in our universe, i said that things are countable in every universe.

Secondly you should realize that we can construct new logical frameworks that are not compatible with the one we have by starting from other axioma or basic operations. Modular arithmetic is such an example (in modular arithmetic with modulo 3 you will see that 2 + 2 = 1). It is not applicable, in one sense anyway, to our universe: material objects in our universe seem countable as natural numbers and not as finite modular sets.

modular arithmetics doesn't mean there are illogical universes or that objects in hypothetical universes wouldn't be countable.

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Secondly you should realize that we can construct new logical frameworks that are not compatible with the one we have by starting from other axioma or basic operations. Modular arithmetic is such an example (in modular arithmetic with modulo 3 you will see that 2 + 2 = 1). It is not applicable, in one sense anyway, to our universe: material objects in our universe seem countable as natural numbers and not as finite modular sets. But at the same time we can construct logic that isn't applicable to our universe at all.

All math theorems have been proved by previous theorems and original axioms.
(2+2=1 mod 3) does not exist in math, a correct modular statement is ( 2 + 2 ≡ 1 mod 3).
(≡) is the sign of congruence, not equality. Modular arithmetic is in fact applicable in our universe, the most common thing which involves modular math is the clock.

modular math is applicable in all universes for that matter. Purple Rabbit mentioned modular math's example in the clock, by the way. I suppose your re-mentioning isn't a big deal.