What if we're all wrong though?

[tackattack]

Sounds like the conversation is turning into a poo slinging fest adn that's very counterproductive, I'm not pontificating and shoveling crap or using words that have no definition or meaning. If you don't choose to see the other side of a situation feel free to drop out of the conversation, I'm simply answering questions to the best of my ability.

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@SN- In post 94 you quoted 2 questions I asked and didn't answer either of them, nor haven't in the myriad of pages of our conversations, they're yes or no questions or multiple choice. Here they are again, plus the one you breezed over (probably because I forgot teh ? , my bad).
a-does the concept of the Christian God from the Bible have only amoral character traits?

I suppose all the 'begat' chapters are amoral, in that they are neither moral nor immoral, but for the rest? There are a very few minor good moral traits, such as a reference to the rule taken from other people's philosophies (the empathy one - do unto others...), but the majority of god's traits are highly immoral from a human perspective. Those traits have caused, and continue to cause, a lot of harm, misery, pain and suffering, both mental and physical. They are not at all good guides for human peace and happiness.

b-Do you deny the culpability of man to use God's creations for evil or do you blame God for the actions of evil?

Evil is an opinion, not an actual fixed entity. I don't believe in gods, so I don't blame any for evil. If the abrahamic god were real though, I would think he was a very immoral, evil creep, and I like to point out to believers why I think their main bible book character is such an evil creep. I blame humans individually, or sometimes as groups (such as those claiming to be following god-commands), for certain preventable or unnecessary acts that are cruel, malicious, etc. Evil is an opinion word for me, just like cruel and malicious are, and I often use them almost interchangeably. Evil is my opinion about a decision that another human makes when I think they should know full well that they are intentionally, and unnecessarily, harming others and not stopping themselves from doing it. I use the word as an adjective usually, but when I use it as a noun, I just mean a bunch of evil things collectively, such as 'the bible is one big cesspool of evil'.

c-How does either of the above equate to 50% omnipresent regardless of the answer?

I was just throwing a number out there of half and half to avoid the possible side issue of comparing how much good vs evil there is in the world. I don't think either exists as a measurable thing. They are emotion based opinions and can easily fluctuate all the time as to how much of either you feel is in your life/world. Also, the same act/behaviour/situation is often seen extremely differently between different people as to where it is on the good vs evil scale.

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1- I agree completely that "Those traits have caused, and continue to cause, a lot of harm, misery, pain and suffering, both mental and physical. They are not at all good guides for human peace and happiness." I'm trying to explain that those are human characteristics that aren't descriptive of what God is, merely what people think he does. They also used to think that he causes lightning to fly from his arse, that's just as untrue. At the same time, a lot of Christian do believe he is awrathfull and merciless God and I combat that with scripturs in my Church and in my classes as much as I can.
2- I agree completely with "Evil is my opinion about a decision that another human makes when I think they should know full well that they are intentionally, and unnecessarily, harming others and not stopping themselves from doing it.". I also seldom use it as a noun and definately not as some malevolent entity. It's our perception of humans doing bad things to humans. I've tried to explain to you that Christians see God as an absolute, an originator. By definition he can only do what he does. Some of those things atttributed to him (incorrectly so far) are percieved by us as evil. Basically if the planet had a consciousness (It doesn't, to my knowledge, just an example), would it see a volcano as evil as we see it, what about letting some ants scurrying on it's surface that constantly destroy everything and each other flooded out of their homes?
3-It wasn't the number I had an issue with. I was trying to understand how our percetion of whether God is malevolent or good has anything to do with our concept of the omnimax principles other than omnibenevolence?

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@ Ramsin.. uhhmm .. I don't know what that was.

What I've simply meant is that if there is no room for pleasure so there is no room for pain.

How do I get God to guide me? If you can take a second away from your selfish wants, allow for the possibility that God can and will be a force that exists in your life, and soften your heart to God you might hear him knocking and then you just have to open the door [/end requested preaching]

You're maybe pointing to meditation. I wonder what do you exactly mean by "selfish wants"?
A person who is struggling to reach his/her own desires and to get rid of his/her own fears has conflicts in his/her mind. If the person stops the conflicts of his/her mind, then the person should be selfless, and such a person simply follows his/her natural instincts.

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4-I don't believe pain is the absence of pleaseure or vice versa. They are independant physical responces
to stimuli and I believe one could be experienced without ever experiencing the other in theory. In actuial practice it's highly unlikely to ever happen that we don't experience both at some point in our lives, unles there is some kind of physical defect in the parts responsible for that.
5- Do I need to define selfish wants here? I'm not talking about meditation, mediation maybe. I was expressing the need to set aside your biases, hates and resentments and allowing for the possiblity that God exists. Softening your heart and getting to a null place emotionally is one of the prerequisites for finding faith. Without this step the faith is blind and counter productive, and doesn't allow you to see God's hand in your life.

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I don't attribute the good things men do to God, but to men, nor do I attribute the bad things men do to God, just to men.

You just made your god redundant, tack.

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Did you mean redundant or impotent min, I'm not following. In fact the sentence you quoted doesn't reference attributes of God at all, merely attempts to correct the humanistic pesonification of a diety. It's about personal accountability from my perspective.

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Ad 1. Perhaps I misunderstood identiy statement. God (noun) is (identifier) Love(noun). correct? God (noun) is a (identifier) wrathfull (adjective) God (noun). God (noun) hates (verb) Fags (noun sorry if this offends :S any1). My point was there are few places in the Bible where God is actually described with an identifier.

Yeah the bible really sucks as to what a god is.

Atheists pick all the adverbs, adjective, determiners and forget that the Bible is mostly prose. They pick out all the negative ones and say "That God's an a hole, f*** believing in that" when an actual description of the concept of God (specifically it's integral parts) should be in the identity criteria of the nouns identified to it.

Atheists pick? Have you lost 'm all? Theists attribute without reservation all sort of things to their god. The reason that we're having this discussion is because you are doing that yourself. Where does the bible say that god is love? You've made it up yourself or worse you are parotting some fabulating theist douchebag. Atheists are not the ones constructing some god.

I'm not dehumanizing anything it's my love and God's Love , 2 completely different things and they're capitonyms.

There is only love between sentient beings made of material on this planet.

Love of god is a vacuous concept based on confirmation bias. For a junkie it is in the syringe, but where is it for the kid with cancer? It seeks to dehumanize us by suggesting that our love is not complete and to dereason us with an imprint of myth and it completely fails to shed any light on what your god is.

Searched for "capitonyms" everywhere but it seems that that is a word you've invented yourself.

Ad 2. Trust that it proves nothing about material reality, agreed. However, my point was that a majority of atheists whom I've spoken to on this particular subject are cherry picking their own biased version of a literal, materialistic Bible, when the Bible as a whole has nothing to do with materialism, proof or literal interpretation.

They are confused by the many god concepts theists pick and choose randomly from their bibles, korans and what have you. But you can mend that all now by giving the one and only clear concise coherent consistent definition of that god of your bible..

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If you don't like the web slang capitonym (correctly defined by Rhizzo) then how about homonym further deliniated in common language with a capitol first letter.
6 (Ad.1)- Agreed.
7 -Yes atheists pick, Christians pick too. However, from my experience here specifically a lot of athesits deny the good and over emphasize the bad. Even the skeptics annotated Guide to the Bible has a section of Good things in the Bible. As to where in the Bible God is Love

1 John 4:8 (King James Version) 8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

I'm not parroting or making shit up, calm down.
8- God's Love is not a confabulation or meaningless it's defined also in the Bible, 1 Corintians 13 I believe. I also see it in the way we humans love just to a lesser degree. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. I'd love it if my Love for my wife were completely unconditional and everlasting for an eternity. If she gets pregnant by another man though I'm going to be pissed and not love her as much. Christians see God as an absolute value of this love, something to help us better our love towards each other.
9 (Ad.2)- Stop your ridiculous posturing. You wanted me to try and explain it, I'm trying to the best of my ability. If other Christians disagree, they're more than welcome to speak up, and give their own interpretation. I think it's pretty universal, IMO but I'm willing to get proven wrong. I understand that atheists are confused by a concept that they don't adhere to, understandably. Lots of theists also find it confusing. I don't know everything pr, and that still has no bearing on it's truth , But I know what God is to me. Gos is Love, guide and the creator.

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My mother told me that if 'God' made himself apparent, it would negate the necessity of 'Faith'. As if that makes any kind of sense at all.

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10- Tell your mother that it only negates the need for blind faith.

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@mem- God isn't a happy vending machine. If your life is shitty, it's not because God's shitting on you, it's because you stepped in dog shit. Clean it off yourself get your life straight. How do I get God to guide me? If you can take a second away from your selfish wants, allow for the possibility that God can and will be a force that exists in your life, and soften your heart to God you might hear him knocking and then you just have to open the door [/end requested preaching]

I can remain silent no longer. I have heard christians use this term so many times that it is beginning to make me ill. How exactly does one “soften” ones “heart” to god? Is there some form of meditation that actually makes the heart (the muscle in your chest that pumps blood through your body) become soft, and when it softens, god can enter it? And then, when your heart is soft enough, does that give your ears some extra power to hear things (like knocking sounds) that they otherwise would not? Or is this actually a euphemism for letting your brain accept the delusion that god is real?

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No need to remain silent, please feel free to participate. If my presence makes any1 uncomfortable I'll be happy to shut up.
11- Obviously, you're a materialst in the extreme sense. The softening of the heart is in
Ezekiel 11:19-21 (King James Version)

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19And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: 20That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. 21But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.

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To sum it up it you need to take the resentment, divisivness, and hate out of your mouth. Act, and speak with love and compassion with your fellow man. Keep the laws of God that are written in your nature (and in the Bible) to be good and kind to one another and to respect your superiors and that will "soften" your heart. It's a metaphor against hatred. I hope I explained that well enough.