On naturalism and consciousness

[The Grand Nudger]

You might misunderstand me, so let me rephrase. I wouldn't say a human mind supervenes on the brain (or anything else) as a whole. I would say that the most fundamental components of mind are assembled into the whole.

Yes, but it may be the interaction of all of those components that creates the effect. Not an attribute possessed by each individual component.

This is not really incompatible with your model, anyway, because you're arguing that logic gating is the fundamental element of mind. That would mean that you could theoretically map the functions of a brain part to an electronic circuit, integrate the two, and do a transplant with no effect on the experience of the person.

I'm arguing that the basis of thought is the -principle- behind the gates. The gates are useful as an explanation of how a physical system achieves the effect.

I would actually expect some effect with such a comprehensive translation btw. We're formatting data not between a mac and a pc - but between HAL and a game of mousetrap, when it comes to comparing human brains and electronic circuits. Because -at least some- portion of the experience of the person is rooted in their biological structure (we see what we see because of the abilities and limits of the arrangement of our eyes, for example..I would say all experience is limited thusly, but I'm leaving you space and hoping that we agree on this particular item) formatting to a system with dissimilar architecture would likely involve handling experience which has no correlate between systems. Something about the experience would have to be changed.

My position is not that different in this regard, except that I don't look for a (to me at least) arbitrary structure or function, but to the exchange of energy, probably at the subatomic level, as that fundamental element.

I don't look for arbitrary structures either. I look for very specific structures. Those capable of implementing boolean functions (also, specific) - at the least. "Exchanges of energy" don't necessarily have that capability.

It certainly wouldn't raise it to what we think of as human sentience. This can be studied with Buddhist meditators and such, who reach states they describe as "eternal not-being" and the like.

So, you know how I would explain this with regards to my model. How would you explain that? What could give rise to a difference between minimally conscious entities and sentient entities, as we've established them?

All this is interesting, but I have to say, we're still not talking about the same things when we say words like "conscious" or "mind." I do not accept any definition of mind or consciousness which excludes a specific reference to the subjective experience of qualia. You do not accept any definition which cannot be coined in purely mechanical/physical terms.

Is there a problem with that? I'm looking to explain the unknown by reference to the known. Comp Mind doesn't actually state that there is "no qualia" - that nothing's happening. It expects there to be (and it expects it to have the attributes often associated with it). I don't actually know that this is the way our mind comes to be. What I do know is that very material structures exist which can adequately describe any statement we make about it(mind) -and that's unsurprising, we're talking logic after all.

What comp mind does say that rubs people raw regarding qualia is that it.
-a: is nothing like our folklore presents it
-b: is mechanical (there's no man behind the curtain)

Also, I think the harshest words about qualia come from Neural Net theories. Those are the guys who have the real tough question of locating a "mind" if their model is an accurate depiction, lol. In vanilla comp mind we still have the option of isolating some specific part of a system and saying, "this is the structure that generates mind". NN or quantum guys go more with "all this -truly- random shit is happening and it's having a very particular effect....."

(lol, I know that's a cartoon version of NN.......before I get roasted by some nerd ..have I linked NAND2tetris yet? )