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A former agnostic, with doubts?
#13
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts?
(September 6, 2014 at 8:58 pm)ignoramus Wrote: I agree with much of what you say.
I just find it absurd to fill any gaps with any sort of deity.
As humans, we try to find order in chaos.
IMHO, all natural chaos will settle to an equilibrium state eventually.
There is no design in this...
The thing is, we humans also have been understanding that "chaos" doesn't really exist in our universe. Everything has an order, obeys to laws, physical interactions and conditioning from the whole universe. Chaos theory is preciselly the idea that simple sets of rules with a wider effect can have chaotic outcomes.
Let's say chess, for an exact game. It has exact and well defined standard rules, with very strict movements to pieces, but by gameplay, by opening the way for more and more variations and possibilities with each movement, makes it so that in chess then there is more positions and possibilities than there is of atoms in the universe, more than 10^100 in fact.
And all of this is just a byproduct of 32 pieces with very strict rules of predictable movement, creates a game with almost endless possibilities.
The fact that classic mechanics really confirm the exact deterministic nature of our universe, chaos by necessity, is just an illusion from complexity.
If you replace the 32 chess pieces with physical forces waves and fields of the universe you basically transpose as much possibilities to the universe.
Isn't it just brilliant that matter in the universe has the exact density required for stars to be generated, that in outcome generate all complexity of atoms we have? And those resulting atoms can bring in complex life forms, just from the "convenient" capacity of growing in complexity of the organic compounds?

(September 6, 2014 at 9:17 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I am not really for the first cause, because whatever God created the universe with in the start would have nothing before it, and there is no time before it, so there doesn't really need to be a cause to that cause, so it doesn't need to be eternal, as there is no time before time started just as there is no more north to the north pole.

I personally believe in God out of faith. Not out of a philosophical or scientific argument.
I'm very sceptical of the existance of nothing. Neither physics or metaphysics can even create a well defined concept of nothing, because the moment you define qualifications to it, it becomes "something" by itself.
So in my own opinion, nothing is the same as non-existence, which obviously can't happen. There is always something, even a void is something.
And the fact is, our universe can exist without the necessity of "nothing" before it/preceeding it. Space-time inflation is in itself evidence that even infinite space can be contained within a point, for instance, a black hole is much "bigger" in the inside.

(September 7, 2014 at 4:19 am)Esquilax Wrote:
(September 6, 2014 at 8:40 pm)Madness20 Wrote: Cosmological arguments:
- The universe requires a cause.

Despite being a mainstay of religious apologetics, this isn't actually an argument for theism at all, which should demonstrate the weakness of that position. The universe requires a cause? Lots of things are causes without being god, or even intelligent or alive. A tornado has a cause, doesn't mean an intelligent being sculpted it. "The universe requires a cause," gets you to exactly one thing, and that thing isn't "god," it's "cause."

You go on later to say that something must have caused our universe to expand from zero energy into everything, including spacetime. Perhaps you can see the problem there: without time, how does anything happen? Causation requires temporality, and you've just accepted there was no time prior to universal expansion. Why would we need a cause in a reality that doesn't have time for there to be a before or after that cause? What does that even mean?

Our current temporal vocabulary of causes and effects simply isn't equipped to deal with what we're actually discussing here, which is why this particular cosmological argument fails.

Quote:- Whatever primary cause the universe has, it must be eternal.

And what does eternity mean, in what we've already established to be a position that lacks time? Also, who decided it must be eternal? Couldn't it be something from another universe, or some form of thing that can exist beyond the boundaries of the universe, but not eternally? I mean, since we're already discussing things for which we have no evidence, why are you limiting yourself like this? Why are you playing into the framework the religious conmen want you to, when you have absolutely no reason to do so? Don't let them play their game just because they're trying to lead you down this path.

Quote:- The primary cause, created everything.

Same deal: what makes you say this? What's stopping the cause from creating some things and having the rest develop later? Why couldn't there be a series of causative events, stemming from the one unique one that only created something small and unimpressive? Lots of assumptions here.

Also, we're still at "cause," not "god," so you aren't even at deism, let alone theism yet. Tongue

Oh. And we're at the end of the cosmological arguments, here. Still not even an attempt to point to a god... little troubling, no? Thinking

Quote:Then there's other arguments:
- Intelligence/Determination

This is an argument from ignorance: "I can't understand how this could come about without design, and therefore it was designed." It's a fallacy: just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. It just means that you don't know how it happened yet.

Quote:- Life

Meh. Life evolves, we know that it does, and there's no need to evoke magic in that. If common elements didn't sustain life, there's no reason to think that anything would even care. This isn't much of an argument.

(September 7, 2014 at 5:12 am)oukoida Wrote: If I were you, I would not be so hasty in concluding that there is a need for a creator. We don't know enough about the world to even make educated guesses about that, except that there was an event that resulted in our present universe. And while the world may be beautiful and full of wonders, keep in mind that it's us who give meaning to its beauty and its awesomeness. The thought that all of this was just "created" by a "god" (whatever that is) is just filling a gap in your knowledge with... well, a bigger gap, since you don't really have any ways of knowing what this "god" thing is.

I'm going to answer both collectivelly, and i apologize, but i feel like you missed some of my points, specially in the way consequences are connected.

Argument for first cause:
Universe has a cause - we all agree on that.
Now what i'm transposing too, is that whatever created the universe, let's call it multiverse, either had a cause(begin), or always existed. By infinite regression, we'll either have a systematically continuously transcending infinite of causation, or an eternal "supreme" entity that created everything. Either way, one of them has to be the answer if we suppose every statement is correct.
Obviously, we're supposing logic applys to the universe and outside, which in my opinion it's fully logical to believe in, the fact that we can apply logic , or rather our universe is literally made of logics, and at least the same must apply to any transcending entity, if not a wider set of logics.
The same way determinism seems to rule our universe, i think it's illogical to think something transcends it, which would be the same as saying that there exists something not influenced at all by anything else, forever.

Existance of eternity:
I'm assuming here the impossibility to there have been a moment "outside" the universe where "nothing" existed. Well, mainly because of the logical impossibility of nothing creating something. So i'm basically assuming something always existed.
Our own "time" was created in the big bang, but nothing contradicts that time exists outside the universe, and the fact that we know both space and time can infinitely distort, and they behave like something we call "branes"/dimensions, and also according to string theory, these dimensions and more exist outside the universe, and created our universe the same way as it "probably" created infinitelly more. We're just on our own spacetime distortion "bubble".

Life:
What i'm arguing here is that basically "life" is as much of a "law"/consequence of the universe as water, i think it's illogical to actually think anything in the universe isn't a natural consequence from the start.
So i can't help but wonder how come life seems to be a systematic of the universe in itself, at least in ours, probably spread through the universe.
In conclusion, i think it's acceptable to find this brilliant organization of matter into life as suspicious as a determination to the universe.
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Messages In This Thread
A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Madness20 - September 6, 2014 at 8:40 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by ignoramus - September 6, 2014 at 8:58 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by ShaMan - September 6, 2014 at 9:05 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by MysticKnight - September 6, 2014 at 9:17 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Whateverist - September 6, 2014 at 9:52 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by professor - September 6, 2014 at 10:56 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Michael - September 7, 2014 at 3:14 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Esquilax - September 7, 2014 at 4:19 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by jesus_wept - September 7, 2014 at 4:58 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Lucanus - September 7, 2014 at 5:12 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Alex K - September 7, 2014 at 11:43 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Whateverist - September 7, 2014 at 12:11 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Madness20 - September 7, 2014 at 2:03 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Alex K - September 7, 2014 at 5:02 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Madness20 - September 7, 2014 at 1:27 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Whateverist - September 7, 2014 at 1:49 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Cyberman - September 7, 2014 at 4:15 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by MysticKnight - September 7, 2014 at 5:29 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Tobie - September 7, 2014 at 5:36 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Cyberman - September 7, 2014 at 6:07 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by pocaracas - September 7, 2014 at 6:35 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Esquilax - September 8, 2014 at 1:05 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Losty - September 7, 2014 at 2:15 pm
A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Bibliofagus - September 7, 2014 at 2:17 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Mudhammam - September 7, 2014 at 5:41 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Wyrd of Gawd - September 7, 2014 at 8:54 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Whateverist - September 8, 2014 at 12:59 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Alex K - September 8, 2014 at 3:23 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by RobbyPants - September 9, 2014 at 8:34 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Simon Moon - September 9, 2014 at 2:05 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Madness20 - September 13, 2014 at 8:20 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Esquilax - September 13, 2014 at 8:36 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Madness20 - September 16, 2014 at 6:39 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Chas - September 16, 2014 at 7:49 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by RobbyPants - September 15, 2014 at 10:59 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Mudhammam - September 16, 2014 at 6:57 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by The Grand Nudger - September 16, 2014 at 11:37 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by bennyboy - September 17, 2014 at 2:52 am

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