Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: February 13, 2025, 12:36 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
A former agnostic, with doubts?
#19
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts?
(September 7, 2014 at 2:03 pm)Madness20 Wrote:
(September 7, 2014 at 11:43 am)Alex K Wrote: "- The universe requires a cause."

No, it doesn't. Case closed.
And how would you argue that? I'm unsure how you can justify that opinion. xD
Then let me sureify you, at least to the extent that I think a justification is even necessary.
Quote:So in your opinion cause effect doesn't extend to the big bang? And it's just a wild unique temporary organization of our universe?

First of all, I'd like to shift the burden of proof to you.

But more concretely: the issue of cause and effect is not as clear cut as you might think. The arrow of time in physics (and hence the distinction between cause and effect) only arises as a statistical effect in physical systems with many degrees of freedom/particles. It is linked to the increase of entropy (with the universe going from less likely to more likely configurations).

Simple physical systems, like e.g. a few point masses attracting each other like a simplified solar system, are completely time reversal invariant. Let them run backwards, and they obey the same laws and are impossible to distinguish (*). Only when many particles are involved, a backwards running movie would suddenly be recognizable because very unlikely things happen.

On top of this, the fundamental laws of physics are not even obviously deterministic because of quantum uncertainty. So cause and effect are not really fundamental properties of the universe, they arise because of the boundary condition of low entropy in the (by definition) "past".

It is so much less obvious that the concept should apply to the universe as a whole. You really need to carefully define what the word even means in this context before you can make this claim. Otherwise, the statement is meaningless and does not require refutation.

(*) there is a small violation of time reversal in the weak interactions. It is not obviously connected to the arrow of time.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

Reply



Messages In This Thread
A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Madness20 - September 6, 2014 at 8:40 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by ignoramus - September 6, 2014 at 8:58 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by ShaMan - September 6, 2014 at 9:05 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by MysticKnight - September 6, 2014 at 9:17 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Whateverist - September 6, 2014 at 9:52 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by professor - September 6, 2014 at 10:56 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Michael - September 7, 2014 at 3:14 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Esquilax - September 7, 2014 at 4:19 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by jesus_wept - September 7, 2014 at 4:58 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Lucanus - September 7, 2014 at 5:12 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Alex K - September 7, 2014 at 11:43 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Whateverist - September 7, 2014 at 12:11 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Madness20 - September 7, 2014 at 2:03 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Alex K - September 7, 2014 at 5:02 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Madness20 - September 7, 2014 at 1:27 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Whateverist - September 7, 2014 at 1:49 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Cyberman - September 7, 2014 at 4:15 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by MysticKnight - September 7, 2014 at 5:29 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Tobie - September 7, 2014 at 5:36 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Cyberman - September 7, 2014 at 6:07 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by pocaracas - September 7, 2014 at 6:35 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Esquilax - September 8, 2014 at 1:05 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Losty - September 7, 2014 at 2:15 pm
A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Bibliofagus - September 7, 2014 at 2:17 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Mudhammam - September 7, 2014 at 5:41 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Wyrd of Gawd - September 7, 2014 at 8:54 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Whateverist - September 8, 2014 at 12:59 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Alex K - September 8, 2014 at 3:23 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by RobbyPants - September 9, 2014 at 8:34 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Simon Moon - September 9, 2014 at 2:05 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Madness20 - September 13, 2014 at 8:20 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Esquilax - September 13, 2014 at 8:36 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Madness20 - September 16, 2014 at 6:39 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Chas - September 16, 2014 at 7:49 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by RobbyPants - September 15, 2014 at 10:59 am
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by Mudhammam - September 16, 2014 at 6:57 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by The Grand Nudger - September 16, 2014 at 11:37 pm
RE: A former agnostic, with doubts? - by bennyboy - September 17, 2014 at 2:52 am

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Former Catholic MR. Macabre 666 12 2086 October 2, 2023 at 12:43 pm
Last Post: Ahriman
  Confessions of a former Christian fundamentalist. Jehanne 56 17039 December 27, 2015 at 6:09 pm
Last Post: Delicate
  Tribal loyalty towards your former religion Aaran 27 7027 July 13, 2015 at 6:20 am
Last Post: Metis
  Agnostic Theists? rexbeccarox 16 6958 December 12, 2013 at 2:49 pm
Last Post: Simon Moon
  A Mormon doubts Something completely different 41 11416 August 27, 2013 at 8:24 pm
Last Post: Bad Writer
  Gnostic v. Agnostic CleanShavenJesus 10 4771 May 13, 2013 at 12:35 am
Last Post: Mystical
  Question for the Former Theists thesummerqueen 15 6580 March 22, 2013 at 9:42 pm
Last Post: Mystic
  Former Westboro Member Poses for NOH8 Campaign Gooders1002 7 5892 February 13, 2013 at 5:12 am
Last Post: Violet
  Are you Agnostic? British_Atheist 19 6262 June 26, 2010 at 5:41 pm
Last Post: Autumnlicious
  Former Christian Apologizes for Being Such a Huge Shit Head for all Those Years Autumnlicious 3 2550 January 29, 2010 at 3:25 pm
Last Post: fr0d0



Users browsing this thread: 7 Guest(s)