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Why Would God Hide?
RE: Why Would God Hide?
(September 30, 2014 at 8:24 pm)snowtracks Wrote:
(September 29, 2014 at 11:52 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Indeed my secret must be so closely guarded that even I haven't got the faintest clue what you're dribbling about.

No change there, then.
well hypothetically let say mid-way thru the universe’s timeline around 6 bya, nothing but rocks, then suddenly there was a thought. From a naturalistic point of view that would seem to be the highlight moment so far. Just what was that thought (speculation) or is the secret still secured ?

That doesn't even make sense. Consciousness is a property of brains, and brains are a product of evolution.

(October 4, 2014 at 1:10 am)snowtracks Wrote:
(October 3, 2014 at 3:40 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Okay snowy, let's try something.

According to xtianity, there was supposedly nothing but void for quadrillions of years. Then one day for no reason at all, this void decided to grow a brain, turn into a god and start thinking about making a universe. How did this brain survive long enough in the void to evolve into a god and where did it get its god powers from?

If you can't answer, then clearly the question is a stumper.
Scientific knowledge is possible only within the 4 dimensions of our space-time-matter-energy universe which began 13 bya. Before that or what the universe is expanding into is non-dimensional of which there is no knowledge except through revelation. So, there no void or zillions of years before; void = space, and years = time. Everything within this universe is subject to the laws and dimensions and is constrained by a single dimension of time, where time cannot be stopped or reversed, and as such must have a beginning. If God is the causal agent that brought the universe into existence, He is not constrained or controlled by the cosmic timeline; hence, doesn’t require a beginning. Also, His capabilities are at least ∞^7 greater than any entity or the universe itself that's ushered along the universe’s one timeline.

"of which there is no knowledge except through revelation"
Congratulations. That may be the first reasonably accurate claim you've made.

Except you need to replace 'revelation' with 'imagination'. Revelation, like faith, is entirely inside your head.
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 6, 2014 at 1:17 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by psychoslice - September 6, 2014 at 1:29 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Minimalist - September 6, 2014 at 1:35 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 6, 2014 at 1:39 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Minimalist - September 6, 2014 at 1:51 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 6, 2014 at 2:06 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Minimalist - September 6, 2014 at 2:42 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 6, 2014 at 2:55 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - September 6, 2014 at 7:21 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 6, 2014 at 5:27 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Thumpalumpacus - September 6, 2014 at 7:45 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Gawdzilla - November 11, 2014 at 8:47 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Vicki Q - September 7, 2014 at 12:43 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Thumpalumpacus - September 7, 2014 at 7:32 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Vicki Q - September 8, 2014 at 5:24 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Tonus - September 8, 2014 at 2:16 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Chad32 - September 7, 2014 at 12:50 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - September 8, 2014 at 1:21 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Chad32 - September 8, 2014 at 1:28 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Whateverist - September 7, 2014 at 12:51 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by vorlon13 - September 7, 2014 at 1:12 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by ShaMan - September 7, 2014 at 1:18 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Wyrd of Gawd - September 7, 2014 at 8:44 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by professor - September 7, 2014 at 9:46 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Thumpalumpacus - September 8, 2014 at 8:25 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Esquilax - September 8, 2014 at 10:12 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Jenny A - September 13, 2014 at 10:52 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Jenny A - September 20, 2014 at 11:16 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - September 28, 2014 at 2:56 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by genkaus - September 28, 2014 at 3:31 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Jenny A - September 28, 2014 at 12:51 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - September 29, 2014 at 12:58 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by vodkafan - September 29, 2014 at 4:09 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Minimalist - September 7, 2014 at 10:13 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by orangebox21 - September 7, 2014 at 11:02 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - September 8, 2014 at 1:27 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by naimless - September 8, 2014 at 1:47 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by FatAndFaithless - September 8, 2014 at 1:50 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by naimless - September 8, 2014 at 1:55 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by FatAndFaithless - September 8, 2014 at 1:57 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by naimless - September 8, 2014 at 2:13 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 8, 2014 at 2:14 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by naimless - September 8, 2014 at 2:18 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by FatAndFaithless - September 8, 2014 at 2:21 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - September 8, 2014 at 2:21 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 8, 2014 at 2:21 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by FatAndFaithless - September 8, 2014 at 2:15 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Chad32 - September 8, 2014 at 2:18 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by naimless - September 8, 2014 at 2:24 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by FatAndFaithless - September 8, 2014 at 2:25 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by naimless - September 8, 2014 at 2:29 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by FatAndFaithless - September 8, 2014 at 2:31 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by naimless - September 8, 2014 at 2:34 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by FatAndFaithless - September 8, 2014 at 2:35 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by naimless - September 8, 2014 at 2:38 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by FatAndFaithless - September 8, 2014 at 2:39 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 8, 2014 at 2:45 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 8, 2014 at 1:59 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - September 8, 2014 at 2:04 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 7, 2014 at 11:27 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by The Valkyrie - September 7, 2014 at 11:32 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 8, 2014 at 11:58 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by naimless - September 8, 2014 at 1:25 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - September 8, 2014 at 1:35 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Minimalist - September 8, 2014 at 2:09 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - September 8, 2014 at 2:15 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Michael - September 8, 2014 at 2:51 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 8, 2014 at 2:53 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Michael - September 8, 2014 at 3:15 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 8, 2014 at 3:29 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - September 8, 2014 at 2:52 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - September 8, 2014 at 2:55 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by naimless - September 8, 2014 at 2:59 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by FatAndFaithless - September 8, 2014 at 3:00 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Madness20 - September 8, 2014 at 3:03 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 8, 2014 at 3:04 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - September 8, 2014 at 3:07 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Michael - September 8, 2014 at 3:38 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 8, 2014 at 3:43 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by FatAndFaithless - September 8, 2014 at 3:44 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Michael - September 8, 2014 at 3:52 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 8, 2014 at 4:24 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Michael - September 8, 2014 at 5:20 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 8, 2014 at 5:30 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Vicki Q - September 9, 2014 at 5:15 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 9, 2014 at 5:28 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Vicki Q - September 10, 2014 at 2:53 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 10, 2014 at 3:13 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Vicki Q - September 11, 2014 at 5:20 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 12, 2014 at 12:42 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Michael - September 8, 2014 at 5:48 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 8, 2014 at 6:11 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Minimalist - September 8, 2014 at 5:49 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - September 10, 2014 at 1:36 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 10, 2014 at 1:57 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - September 10, 2014 at 11:03 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Tonus - September 10, 2014 at 9:04 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - September 13, 2014 at 10:39 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Tonus - September 14, 2014 at 7:47 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by dissily mordentroge - September 14, 2014 at 9:24 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Brakeman - September 14, 2014 at 10:01 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Chad32 - September 10, 2014 at 10:10 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Mystical - September 10, 2014 at 11:12 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - September 10, 2014 at 11:17 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - September 16, 2014 at 1:32 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Tonus - September 16, 2014 at 6:37 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - September 16, 2014 at 7:48 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Tonus - September 16, 2014 at 8:44 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Brakeman - September 17, 2014 at 7:10 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by dissily mordentroge - September 17, 2014 at 9:46 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 19, 2014 at 11:35 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - September 20, 2014 at 8:20 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Brakeman - September 21, 2014 at 7:33 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Minimalist - September 10, 2014 at 11:42 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by The Valkyrie - September 10, 2014 at 11:46 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Bad Wolf - September 11, 2014 at 3:37 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by MJ the Skeptical - September 11, 2014 at 9:56 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 11, 2014 at 1:28 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by MJ the Skeptical - September 11, 2014 at 10:45 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by TaraJo - September 11, 2014 at 11:51 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by MJ the Skeptical - September 15, 2014 at 5:15 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by dissily mordentroge - September 15, 2014 at 6:29 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by TaraJo - September 11, 2014 at 1:45 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Whateverist - September 12, 2014 at 10:48 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Chad32 - September 13, 2014 at 10:47 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by dissily mordentroge - September 13, 2014 at 11:23 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by MJ the Skeptical - September 15, 2014 at 7:12 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by psychoslice - September 16, 2014 at 1:37 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by StealthySkeptic - September 16, 2014 at 12:48 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by ShaMan - September 16, 2014 at 1:42 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by The Grand Nudger - September 16, 2014 at 2:00 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by dissily mordentroge - September 16, 2014 at 3:38 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by The Grand Nudger - September 16, 2014 at 11:26 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Madness20 - September 21, 2014 at 5:16 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Lemonvariable72 - September 21, 2014 at 6:31 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by genkaus - September 21, 2014 at 10:36 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Tonus - October 1, 2014 at 6:23 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by The Grand Nudger - September 21, 2014 at 5:37 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Madness20 - September 21, 2014 at 6:07 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - September 21, 2014 at 6:39 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Lemonvariable72 - September 21, 2014 at 6:40 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Wyrd of Gawd - September 22, 2014 at 2:27 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by The Grand Nudger - September 21, 2014 at 6:45 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Whateverist - September 22, 2014 at 1:41 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - September 22, 2014 at 1:46 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Chad32 - September 28, 2014 at 9:02 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - September 29, 2014 at 11:37 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Esquilax - September 29, 2014 at 11:53 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - September 30, 2014 at 1:19 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Esquilax - September 30, 2014 at 1:42 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - September 30, 2014 at 1:44 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Esquilax - September 30, 2014 at 1:51 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - September 30, 2014 at 8:10 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Esquilax - October 1, 2014 at 2:49 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by little_monkey - September 28, 2014 at 9:20 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - September 29, 2014 at 11:52 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - September 30, 2014 at 8:24 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Mudhammam - September 30, 2014 at 8:36 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - October 1, 2014 at 6:18 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - October 3, 2014 at 12:11 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Esquilax - October 3, 2014 at 12:27 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Bad Wolf - October 3, 2014 at 2:29 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Chas - October 5, 2014 at 10:05 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Mudhammam - September 30, 2014 at 1:32 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Chad32 - September 30, 2014 at 7:40 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - September 30, 2014 at 8:16 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Mudhammam - September 30, 2014 at 8:21 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by The Valkyrie - September 30, 2014 at 8:37 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Mudhammam - September 30, 2014 at 8:44 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by The Valkyrie - September 30, 2014 at 8:46 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Esquilax - October 1, 2014 at 6:29 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Thumpalumpacus - October 1, 2014 at 11:09 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - October 3, 2014 at 3:40 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by vorlon13 - October 3, 2014 at 11:32 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - October 4, 2014 at 1:10 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Esquilax - October 4, 2014 at 1:14 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Tonus - October 4, 2014 at 8:07 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - October 11, 2014 at 10:34 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Esquilax - October 12, 2014 at 12:41 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Tonus - October 12, 2014 at 2:57 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - October 13, 2014 at 11:06 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Esquilax - October 14, 2014 at 12:05 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Darkstar - October 14, 2014 at 12:10 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - October 14, 2014 at 1:40 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Esquilax - October 14, 2014 at 1:49 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - October 14, 2014 at 7:39 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Brakeman - October 14, 2014 at 7:53 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - October 14, 2014 at 8:02 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Brakeman - October 14, 2014 at 8:11 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Esquilax - October 15, 2014 at 12:42 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - October 15, 2014 at 2:53 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Tonus - October 14, 2014 at 6:00 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Wyrd of Gawd - October 6, 2014 at 3:39 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Esquilax - October 3, 2014 at 11:09 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - October 4, 2014 at 11:11 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by little_monkey - October 5, 2014 at 11:30 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - October 5, 2014 at 4:10 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - October 6, 2014 at 4:04 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - October 12, 2014 at 7:41 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Justtristo - October 14, 2014 at 3:48 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by ThomM - October 14, 2014 at 3:17 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - November 1, 2014 at 10:10 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Tonus - October 14, 2014 at 8:12 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Mystical - October 16, 2014 at 10:29 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - October 17, 2014 at 9:39 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2014 at 1:29 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by dyresand - November 3, 2014 at 9:27 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - November 3, 2014 at 11:21 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by little_monkey - November 4, 2014 at 9:54 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Well Rounded Rectangle - November 4, 2014 at 11:28 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Nintentacle - November 5, 2014 at 6:02 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Chad32 - November 5, 2014 at 9:45 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - November 6, 2014 at 3:01 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by The Grand Nudger - November 5, 2014 at 10:49 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Chad32 - November 6, 2014 at 11:10 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Esquilax - November 6, 2014 at 11:24 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - November 15, 2014 at 1:27 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Chad32 - November 15, 2014 at 1:46 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by dyresand - November 8, 2014 at 9:27 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Tonus - November 10, 2014 at 7:48 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by snowtracks - November 10, 2014 at 8:25 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Tonus - November 11, 2014 at 6:25 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Cyberman - November 10, 2014 at 8:28 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by The Grand Nudger - November 11, 2014 at 10:28 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by parakletos - November 17, 2014 at 10:01 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Smaug - November 19, 2014 at 5:23 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Lek - November 19, 2014 at 5:46 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Chad32 - November 19, 2014 at 6:41 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Lek - November 19, 2014 at 7:30 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Fidel_Castronaut - November 21, 2014 at 8:18 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Tonus - November 20, 2014 at 10:08 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Smaug - November 19, 2014 at 6:04 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Lek - November 19, 2014 at 6:09 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Smaug - November 19, 2014 at 6:27 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Lek - November 19, 2014 at 7:12 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Smaug - November 19, 2014 at 6:50 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Chad32 - November 19, 2014 at 6:55 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Smaug - November 19, 2014 at 7:03 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Chad32 - November 19, 2014 at 7:14 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Smaug - November 19, 2014 at 7:28 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Smaug - November 19, 2014 at 7:40 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Lek - November 19, 2014 at 8:29 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by dyresand - November 19, 2014 at 8:52 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Chad32 - November 19, 2014 at 8:57 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by dyresand - November 19, 2014 at 9:00 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Smaug - November 20, 2014 at 2:02 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by dyresand - November 20, 2014 at 11:18 pm
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Smaug - November 21, 2014 at 7:45 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Smaug - November 21, 2014 at 8:36 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Grandizer - November 21, 2014 at 8:41 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Smaug - November 21, 2014 at 8:48 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by Lemonvariable72 - November 21, 2014 at 8:51 am
RE: Why Would God Hide? - by dyresand - November 21, 2014 at 9:28 am

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