One of my problems

[Eilonnwy]

I suppose what I think is the first one, that govt should have a right to deny people assembling specifically for religious belief. Here's why I think what I said above and a response to this; I don't think they should have the right to exist. I think they have acted in ways that should deny them that right.

And what about the good churches have done? Churches promote charity, create a welcoming atmosphere for the community, does community service, etc... You can't say all churches everywhere are evil. You can't condemn churches for the bad they do without considering the good they also do.

I will agree that some problematic things have happened in churches and can be promoted by church, but you need to attack those problems specifically, not blanket ban the churches themselves. The solution to the child pedophilia cases is not banning churches. That doesn't solve the problem. Pedophilia will still exist. You need to prosecute and arrest those responsible for doing it and hiding it.

I agree that it is a more dangerous idea, and that kinda gets me excited(is that creepy?).

Yes, and kinda makes me think you might be a troll. If you really do get excited by trampling on the basics rights of freedoms, then I think your beliefs are abhorrent.

As for stifling individual freedoms, you can't drive your car faster than x mph without being punished, isn't that the governement stifiling an individual freedom? My point is that here are always limits and laws to control peoples 'freedoms', but it can be changed for better or worse.

You argue for government control of churches then question speed limits? If you think you're making a case for yourself, you're not. Your statements are getting more absurd with every post. As I have said, I support limited government control which strikes a balance between promoting individual freedoms while protecting people from abuses of those freedoms. In no way does banning churches serve that purpose, it simply is a means of attempting to control a group of people for not behaving and thinking like you.

I am tired of having to worry about who's better or whats fair. People are dying right now. Today. Yesterday. Soldiers, innocent children. Why should I give a crap about being fair or better? It's too late, isn't it? How many chances are we to give theists? Religions long and enduring history has made me unable to give any theists a break.

Haha, really? So you essentially support a totalitarian social construct in which no person can go to or worship at church because YOU don't want to worry about what's fair? Are you kidding me? As long as you get your way it doesn't matter whether the ideals of freedom are upheld? Your way of thinking right now is more dangerous than any of the Christian's who frequent this forum.

The churches themselves do not cause the questionable and problematic things some Christians can do. They are a place of community, yes. Ideas are propagated, yes, and in some churches some teachings are problematic. Pastors that preach anti abortion propaganda are dangerous, and have lead to shootings. I don't deny that, but the church didn't do it, the people did. And those people could propagate their ideas without a church. American Muslim terrorists have been recruited through the internet. You're misdirecting your anger of the ills of religion at the church. Banning churches does not stop the problem, it does not address it, it simply causes oppression and if you claim to be so superior to Christians, you'd recognize that it's wrong.

You say that you are not oppressed because your neighbors go to church but I disagree. If your neighboor prays in their own home maybe, but when they drop that dollar in the collection plate IN CHURCH, it gets funneled to places of which you and I don't know the whereabouts. Maybe it pays for the churchs bible collection that goes to a religious publishing company who's CEO is then able to donate their publications to an area, far away from your neighbor and you and I, that kills non-believers in the bibles name. It happens. There is too much of a disconnect between what you deem as harmless and what has happened in the past and what is happening today.

And that same dollar can go to a charity and feed a hungry child in charity. You're putting the ills of religion solely on the church itself, and that's truly absurd. I get that you care about the harms religions have and will cause, but you are completely misguided in your method of dealing with it. You sound as bad as the fundamentalist wackos who insist Harry Potter is evil because it espouses witchcraft.

Point taken. But again, I think you are giving theists too much room to move.

I think you want to take away a theists room to move at all.

Think of it like this if you will please;

Imagine you are at a job and you have subordinates. One of those is named 'Christian'. If Christian were to make some mistakes, you wouldn't can him because he does his job pretty well, better than the last guy in fact, and we all make some mistakes. But one day Christian makes a grave mistake and almost causes your company to go bankrupt. He would be fired, right? Okay...maybe not yet, he still means well. So next month he makes a similar mistake, but this time he did it knowingly. You would fire him for sure this time right? How long are we supposed to wait exactly?

Fire the Churches.

No. Churches are not the problem. You might as well say hospitals shouldn't exist because people die there. Banks shouldn't exist because robberies happens there. Your assertions are ludicrous. Churches aren't people. They are buildings that people go to. The Ku Klux Clan meets in buildings, should we say those buildings shouldn't exist?

What if Christians banned all atheist assembly because they fear the dangers of atheism? Oh hey, let's ban all assemblies of white people, because they could be promoting racism and planning to kill black people!

You have a very simplistic and naive way of thinking. Your solution does nothing. It would force churches underground but they would still exist. It would rid the world of the charity churches DO provide, and keep the propaganda and malicious ideas they promote underground and out of the scrutiny of the public to keep it in check. You would be trampling on the rights of individuals to believe just as you disbelieve.

I'll be the first to condemn the problems of the Catholic church and any other church, I'll be the first to demand justice and equal treatment. I will not, however, deny my fellow Christians their basic freedoms. I will not condemn every Christian and every religion for the evils of some. (Hasty generalization much?)

Your argument can be summed up as this, "Religion has been responsible for evil. Religions assemble at churches. Therefore churches are bad! We must ban churches." You give no consideration to the complicated role religion plays, what causes the ills of religions, and wish to solve the problem through an idiotic ban on something that is secondary to the larger problem at hand. The world is not so black and white, your ideas are not revolutionary, they are oppressive and authoritarian.

I will quote the wise Benjamin Franklin, "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."