MERGED: The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ (Part 1) & (Part 2)

[Minimalist]

"Clement" which jesus freaks have tried to date to 96 AD based on the persecution of Domitian has run into a serious problem. Domitian did not persecute xtians. He may have offed a few jews. He was after all the son of Vespasian and brother of Titus who kicked the crap out of the jews in the Great Revolt. As noted here:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/1clement.html

Loisy maintains that the author of 1 Clement was a distinguished Roman elder who flourished 130-140 and that this Clement was named in the Shepherd of Hermas (Vision, 8:3), which is also to be dated to the mid second century. Notably, a writing is mentioned in 1 Clement 23:3 in which the challenge is quoted, "These things we did hear in the days of our fathers also, and behold we have grown old, and none of these things hath befallen us." Because this source document for 1 Clement must have been written when the hope of the imminent parousia was waning, and because 1 Clement itself must have dealt with the same issue, the document can scarcely be dated to the time of the first Christian generation. Other indications of lateness include the tradition in chapter 5 that Paul traveled to the extremities of the west (i.e., Spain) and the emphasis on the appointment of "bishops and deacons" (42:1-5). Most notably, there is stated to be "a rule of succession" for bishops and deacons who have "fallen asleep" (44:2). This suggests a second century date for 1 Clement.

Again, not to belabor the point, but 140 is the era of Marcion.

Ignatius is even worse. Scholars are still arguing about the authenticity of his so-called epistles in addition to their dating.

http://historical-jesus.info/ignatius.html

As the conclusion of this points out, the studies of Ignatius' letters date from the 1870's and 1880's and all by devout churchie types and are in serious need of an update. Carrier writes (pg 315-16) of Ignatius:

Those letters survive. If tradition were correct about how they were produced, then this would be the next earliest datable Christian writing after 1 Clement (outside the NT).44 However, almost every single element of this tradition has been challenged by modern scholars, many of whom do not believe Ignatius wrote these letters, or that they were written so early, or even in the circumstances assumed.

We desperately need someone to go after this stuff.

So putting much stock in any of these writings, edited and forged as they were over the centuries as church doctrine evolved, seems pretty pointless. I do agree with your conclusion. There were lots of xtian (or perhaps chrestian) sects around, all with their own traditions - Pliny seems to have run into one such group in Asia Minor c 110 AD. Ehrman's Lost Christianities deals with the subject and the emergence of the proto-orthodox and their subsequent re-writing of church history to make it come out the way they like.

If you want to read it, I have an electronic copy. PM an email address and I'll send it to you.[/quote]