A world without Christianity
January 14, 2015 at 1:04 pm
(This post was last modified: January 14, 2015 at 1:08 pm by Grasshopper.)
These are hypothetical question I thought we could debate so it shouldn't start a flame war I feel.
The main point of this thread is to point out history wouldn't be any less violent if Christianity did not exist. Here are the topics-
1) What would the world be like if Christianity was never started? What would the world history be like if Jesus never existed? (Rule no. 1- No cheap answers saying Jesus never existed anyways. )
2) What would happen if Christianity disappeared tomorrow? I mean what if suddenly everyone gave up Christianity and the religious institutions no longer operated?
So here are my answers. Obviously I'm going to be on the pro side and hope other Christians are too. Atheists feel free to refute (DUH!) and theists feel free to add.
Before starting, I'd like to call bullshit on claims that say religion destroyed the world. With over 99% of the world believing in some higher power in the past it's easy to blame religion for just about anything.
For 1) here it goes-
1- The most basic and I guess most stupid, we'd have no John, peter, matthew, paul, Mary as names. Most names today are derived from Christian names.
2- Getting serious, Emperor Nero wouldn't have anyone to blame the Rome fire on, and lives would've been spared. He may have been ousted.
3- Paganism would've survived a tad bit longer, gladiator games and men fighting animals and getting killed would continue.
4- The Olympic games would continue. Yes it's a pity they were stopped.
5- Rome would've fallen much earlier and much more violently to Atilla the hun if pope Leo hadn't persuaded him to retreat.
6- The churches wouldn't have any stake in the system of feudalism. The people wouldn't have to pay taxes. This is good.
7-After the western Roman Empire fell, the monks were the only ones who kept writing, and scholasticism alive because they wanted to keep preserving the bible. No Christianity means no monks and no bible which means no motivation like the rest of Europe to keep literacy intact.
8- Islam would develop, with the exclusion of jesus in it. The muslims would settle in Europe like they did in Africa where rarely did the practicioners of the Traditional African religion oppose them. Charles Martel wouldn't'nt be born if the line of frankish kings was eliminated. Being a pagan, or non religious civilization, Europe would be home to muslims just as Africa. The kingdoms of western Europe and the Byzantine empire wouldn't have any reason to unite. And since there was no large desert to cross, they'd have reached the British isles in no time.
9- The crusades wouldn't have happened . . . Yes. That's good again. But if the muslins weren't attacking there would be no crusades. The muslims were already in Spain and invading the byzantine empire and without any friendly support from the western kingdoms it would've quickly fallen. Yes the conquest of the holy Land would've been unnecessary, and the church shouldn't have asked for the aid of others, but still I think the reason we're not muslim today is because all of Europe stood united under a single faith and landed an effective blow on the Abbassid Caliphate. Without being united under a common goal/fear, I see no reason why england or france would side with each other and push the muslims back from the byzantine borders. What followed afterwards was simply land grab masked under faith.
10- Now getting back to if Europe stayed pagan or non religious. After the fall of Rome monks produced bibles by hand to keep literacy intact. (Of course the muslims helped too)
What would Gutenberg first publish if not the bible? Canterbury tales? (Would we have Canterbury tales without Christianity? Hmm . . .) Would Gutenberg be literate without the monks' efforts at preserving and translating roman era writings?
11- the first universities were started by Christian theologians/scholars. But since after the fall of Rome barbarisnism took hold and literacy fell, would it be wise to think we would be more better off ( technologically and scientifically) than we are now?
12- During times of emergency like plague and war, nuns and monks served others. But I admit, atheists could've done that too. So don't count this.
13-Now IF by some miracle, Europe did advance technologically, consider this- since technological advancement and disbelief in god has nothing to do with good morals and peace, (communists) what would've stopped the European kingdoms from taking over the New World? NOTHING. The western colonization and slavery would've gone forth even without Christianity. Perhaps justified by survival of the fittest.
Remember Romans had slaves and up till recently slavery was not frowned upon. In fact the early church in Rome campaigned for humane treatment of slaves.
14- Galileo would've been allowed to share his views. That's also good. But fact- they were allowing him to present it as a scientific theory, as copernicus did. But it was HE who wanted the church to declare it theologically. They didn't want to do that, he made a big fuss, they arrested him.
15- The Catholic-protestant wars wouldn't have happened- true. But those wars were fought because they thought the other faction was going to attack them. Mistrust. Btw- out of the 10 most destructive wars, only 1 is Christian based.
That's all that comes to mind right now. If I remember I'll add more.
Please note- You cannot end in 1 sentence saying the Roman Empire wouldn't have fallen. It fell to pagan barbarians and wasn't weakened by Christianity.
Ps- if I may have seemed condescending, please note that it was not my intention.
For 2- simply- someone will have to find some place to move those orphans, sick people, crippled, old and children in 3rd world countries who can't afford school
The main point of this thread is to point out history wouldn't be any less violent if Christianity did not exist. Here are the topics-
1) What would the world be like if Christianity was never started? What would the world history be like if Jesus never existed? (Rule no. 1- No cheap answers saying Jesus never existed anyways. )
2) What would happen if Christianity disappeared tomorrow? I mean what if suddenly everyone gave up Christianity and the religious institutions no longer operated?
So here are my answers. Obviously I'm going to be on the pro side and hope other Christians are too. Atheists feel free to refute (DUH!) and theists feel free to add.
Before starting, I'd like to call bullshit on claims that say religion destroyed the world. With over 99% of the world believing in some higher power in the past it's easy to blame religion for just about anything.
For 1) here it goes-
1- The most basic and I guess most stupid, we'd have no John, peter, matthew, paul, Mary as names. Most names today are derived from Christian names.
2- Getting serious, Emperor Nero wouldn't have anyone to blame the Rome fire on, and lives would've been spared. He may have been ousted.
3- Paganism would've survived a tad bit longer, gladiator games and men fighting animals and getting killed would continue.
4- The Olympic games would continue. Yes it's a pity they were stopped.
5- Rome would've fallen much earlier and much more violently to Atilla the hun if pope Leo hadn't persuaded him to retreat.
6- The churches wouldn't have any stake in the system of feudalism. The people wouldn't have to pay taxes. This is good.
7-After the western Roman Empire fell, the monks were the only ones who kept writing, and scholasticism alive because they wanted to keep preserving the bible. No Christianity means no monks and no bible which means no motivation like the rest of Europe to keep literacy intact.
8- Islam would develop, with the exclusion of jesus in it. The muslims would settle in Europe like they did in Africa where rarely did the practicioners of the Traditional African religion oppose them. Charles Martel wouldn't'nt be born if the line of frankish kings was eliminated. Being a pagan, or non religious civilization, Europe would be home to muslims just as Africa. The kingdoms of western Europe and the Byzantine empire wouldn't have any reason to unite. And since there was no large desert to cross, they'd have reached the British isles in no time.
9- The crusades wouldn't have happened . . . Yes. That's good again. But if the muslins weren't attacking there would be no crusades. The muslims were already in Spain and invading the byzantine empire and without any friendly support from the western kingdoms it would've quickly fallen. Yes the conquest of the holy Land would've been unnecessary, and the church shouldn't have asked for the aid of others, but still I think the reason we're not muslim today is because all of Europe stood united under a single faith and landed an effective blow on the Abbassid Caliphate. Without being united under a common goal/fear, I see no reason why england or france would side with each other and push the muslims back from the byzantine borders. What followed afterwards was simply land grab masked under faith.
10- Now getting back to if Europe stayed pagan or non religious. After the fall of Rome monks produced bibles by hand to keep literacy intact. (Of course the muslims helped too)
What would Gutenberg first publish if not the bible? Canterbury tales? (Would we have Canterbury tales without Christianity? Hmm . . .) Would Gutenberg be literate without the monks' efforts at preserving and translating roman era writings?
11- the first universities were started by Christian theologians/scholars. But since after the fall of Rome barbarisnism took hold and literacy fell, would it be wise to think we would be more better off ( technologically and scientifically) than we are now?
12- During times of emergency like plague and war, nuns and monks served others. But I admit, atheists could've done that too. So don't count this.
13-Now IF by some miracle, Europe did advance technologically, consider this- since technological advancement and disbelief in god has nothing to do with good morals and peace, (communists) what would've stopped the European kingdoms from taking over the New World? NOTHING. The western colonization and slavery would've gone forth even without Christianity. Perhaps justified by survival of the fittest.
Remember Romans had slaves and up till recently slavery was not frowned upon. In fact the early church in Rome campaigned for humane treatment of slaves.
14- Galileo would've been allowed to share his views. That's also good. But fact- they were allowing him to present it as a scientific theory, as copernicus did. But it was HE who wanted the church to declare it theologically. They didn't want to do that, he made a big fuss, they arrested him.
15- The Catholic-protestant wars wouldn't have happened- true. But those wars were fought because they thought the other faction was going to attack them. Mistrust. Btw- out of the 10 most destructive wars, only 1 is Christian based.
That's all that comes to mind right now. If I remember I'll add more.
Please note- You cannot end in 1 sentence saying the Roman Empire wouldn't have fallen. It fell to pagan barbarians and wasn't weakened by Christianity.
Ps- if I may have seemed condescending, please note that it was not my intention.
For 2- simply- someone will have to find some place to move those orphans, sick people, crippled, old and children in 3rd world countries who can't afford school
