RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 11:26 pm
(This post was last modified: January 27, 2015 at 11:30 pm by Creed of Heresy.)
(January 27, 2015 at 7:14 pm)professor Wrote: C of H, no one can answer your question.
I think you guys get hung up on your definitions of omnipotent, omniscient.
There are things an unchanging God can not do, like lie, or go against His nature.
Seems to me you want an out.
To be able to say: "It's not my fault, I am simply pre-programed".
Much like:
"It was the serpent" /
"The woman YOU gave me gave me.."
But using the naturalistic jargon of today.
Same tune- different words.
He cannot go against his nature, and yet he did. He went from being an angry, jealous god, to being a kind, benevolent god.
The definitions of omnipotence and omniscience are not ambiguous. They are concrete, solid, agreed-upon for millenia; the bible describes god as all-knowing, all-powerful, all-present. There is no ambiguity in these claims. And yet his nature is completely contradictory, at least according to the bible. The bible was compiled three centuries after Jesus supposedly existed. It's almost like there was no consensus, like nobody could get their story straight. When nobody can get their story straight, then the story is a lie. If the story is a lie, there is no basis for your faith. If there is no basis for your faith, then your faith is actually a solipsistic self-delusion rather than a matter of faith.
The reason nobody can answer my question is because there is no answer, and there is no answer because there is no truth to the existence of god. It is a falsehood. A lie told for millenia by the privileged few who could not exercise their power through anything other than lies and mysticism. And yet to this day, billions continue to succumb to those lies and that mysticism, blindly believing the few who control them.
You need only look at the 1,200 megachurches with their millions of constituents and their equal amounts of income and abuse of their tax-exempt status for proof of this.
"Faith" is the surrender of reason, the surrender of the mind. Of all the "virtues," faith is the most overblown, most over-rated. (Christopher Hitchens; he had it right)
You cannot answer me, because religion and faith provides no real answers. At the end of the day, you have nothing. You have hollow claims and hollow promises, hollow words. And hollow words are meaningless. They are empty. Devoid of relevance. Devoid of content. Devoid. Void. Pointless. Worthy of no consideration. Worthy of no acceptance. Worthy of nothing but scorn.
That I don't scorn you but pity you is a mercy on my part. It is a generosity. A condescension, yes, but it's better than my outright contempt.
It's because I was once in your shoes. I was. Until I realized the truth of what I have just said. When I realized the emptiness of my words, of my thoughts, I realized the emptiness of my self-worth. I realized my vulnerability to being manipulated and controlled by those who had no place, no right to do so.
I wonder if you will do the same. All I can say is...
Don't be afraid of drowning. Come on in, the water is fine. And if you need to, stay in the shallow end, wade until you are confident. The universal pool of curiosity and learning becomes exhilarating to jump into. Diving is a joy. There is a vigor in the waves and currents, and dealing with the difficulties they present.
But first it requires you to realize the emptiness of your beliefs. It requires you to think. Can you question the contradiction, the meaninglessness? Or do you close your eyes and pretend it's all got meaning, even though the meaning is only of your own making?
Religion will tell you you're not worthy, that you are a terrible sinner and without submission you are a worthless, terrible thing. I believe you're worthy of self-value. I believe you don't need to lie to yourself to find your way in life. I believe you can completely think for yourself. You, Godschild, Drich...I believe you have the capacity. I know you have the capacity. It's up to you to determine if you can use that to your own benefit. If the false comfort has too much of a hold on you, if it's too scary to even consider surrendering...so be it. But I'll always hope.
I know you'll do the same for me in regards to your own worldview, but I promise you, to go back to your way of thinking would hurt me far more than it would help, even if you cannot understand how or why.
(January 27, 2015 at 7:49 pm)Faith No More Wrote: You know, part of me agrees with this sentiment and part of me is entirely too curious to simply dismiss predeterminaiton as unimportant.
I agree with rasetsu's comment that it's unlikely that the free will debate will become settled anytime soon, but I also think that it's important to recognize that the science is piling up more and more against free will. As Creed pointed out, there are many parts of the brain that the consciousness has no control over, and it has become quite established that our thoughts and decisions are highly dependent upon and constrained by our brain structure.
I admit that I lean towards determinism, so this may be my bias talking. But I think that the scientific evidence lays the onus of the argument on the proponents of free will.
I don't think the free will debate will ever be settled. It would require hard evidence to bring about a near-unanimous consent on the matter, and let's face it; no hard evidence will probably ever be provided in favor of predetermination. Maybe for total free will. Maybe. But I doubt that, too. But just based on our slavery to our hormonal impulses, I think I can safely say that we ourselves actually prevent free will from being an absolute thing.
Still...we still at least have the capacity to make informed decisions to an extent.