(January 28, 2015 at 7:51 pm)Godschild Wrote: 1 That's all I've heard here, if God knows, if God knows, care to use some words other than those to prove your point. God says His desire is for all to be saved, how is that in any way connected to predetermination.
2 In what world? Just because God is all powerful doesn't necessarily mean He uses that power to control anything or anyone. If God had predetermined everyone's fate, then pray tell why did He find it necessary to give the law. If all human life is predetermined then no one can keep or break the law, they have no choice in the matter. Why send His Messiah, why allow his Son to become a man an die such a terrible death, why would He need to send Him from the comfort of heaven. Why would God through Jesus give us the two greatest commandments of love and tell us if we keep these two the rest will fall into place in our lives. There is choice in all these examples, you haven't given one thing to show how God has predetermined our lives.
3 That's the craziest thing I've heard yet, tell me why does He have to exert that power onto us, what rule exist that says he must. Because He doesn't choose to exert His power onto us doesn't mean He doesn't have it. Actually being all powerful means He can restrain from doing so.
4 Yet again the same old stuff, God does have power over all mankind that's a given. Through that power He's given us free will, to determine our destiny.
5 Then why the law, God being all that you yourself have said, then He would know the law would be completely useless a waste of time, being omniscient He wouldn't have given the law. He gave the law to give man choice and show man he could not make the right choices all the time, actually not even close to all the time.
6 Now you're contradicting what you said above, above you said God being omniscient and here your saying He couldn't be omniscient, it can't be both ways, you've a decision to make, ah yes, choice backed yourself into that one.
7 They came under judgment for wrong choices, choices that went to far beyond what God was going to allow. They were judged and condemned by the perfect God of creation. Christ came to intervene on our behalf for our wrong choices and He himself became a choice, we can choose to allow Him to direct our lives or we can choose to direct our own lives. I've done both, I truly have found choosing Christ to be far better.
8 I was wondering when you were going to get around to saying we have free will, by the way, you like Rhythm need to understand that the words you choose to use are not related to predetermination. Influence isn't even close to having ones life predetermined, actually influence supports free choice. If we are being influenced it is to show us there is another choice we can make.
GC
Numbered everything for ease of using the quotes and replying to the individual segments at the same time.
1: Taking apart a single point of an argument that is self-contained pretty much betrays how much you're actually paying attention. That is to say, it shows you're not actually reading with the intent of hearing anything contrary to what you and you alone think, you're just being a contrarian for the sake of being the debating equivalent of a petulant screaming child. Have some respect for the fact I'm willing to actually spend some time discussing this with you and pay some fucking attention.
2-3: If you are ALL POWERFUL. Stick with me here, I know you have a VERY short attention span, but. If you are ALL POWERFUL. It means you are ALL POWERFUL. It means that the universe itself shapes to your will. The bible does not say he has the capacity for omnipotence. It says he IS omnipotent. It also says he is omnipresent. If he is present in everything, he is present in our actions, our thoughts, everything. If he is present in our actions and thoughts and he has power over everything then two plus two equals four and his power is being expressed in our actions.
To make it REAL simple for you: All-present = Present in everything. Everything = EVERYTHING. All-powerful = Power over EVERYTHING. All-knowing = Knows EVERYTHING. If he is present in our actions, and has power over them, and knows what they will lead to, then he is influencing us directly, and with the power of foresight and hindsight. Strip away the part about omniscience if you need to make it simpler for you; he is present in everything. Our actions. Geddit yet? I can't spell it out any clearer, so if you don't, well, you're a lost cause and I'm wasting calories typing this.
4: No, not the "same old thing," it's a part of a larger argument, which you would have realized if you were more interested in considering the point instead of just cutting it apart into pieces to rearrange into your own worldview's compatibility.
5: Yeah, about that... Isn't the act of god giving mankind law him interfering in our lives? You know...interfering with out free will? Why didn't he just let us figure things out on our own? If he has the power of perfect foresight, and he made this one action to set us on the right path, then why didn't he make a set of other actions to set us on the ABSOLUTE right path? If he gave us free will, doesn't that mean we would know right from wrong from the get-go? I mean, we'd be able to figure it out on our own, that's kind of what free will entails. I'm not arguing in favor of god's omni-abilities. I'm saying how they don't stack up with the claims about them or himself.
6: Another example of "if you had read and considered the entire point as the whole that it is supposed to be and not picked it apart into neat little pieces you could re-arrange until it was no longer the original argument and had instead become a strawman, you'd get what I'm saying." Unfortunately, what you've done so far is... Well, take an equation. 1+ 2 + 3 = 6. What you've done thus far is go "1 DOESN'T EQUAL 6! 2 DOESN'T EQUAL 6! 3 DOESN'T EQUAL 6!" Take the entire argument into consideration as a whole; not the sum of its parts.
7: Ah, so god will give us free will...unless we use our free will too much, then he'll get mad and kill us? So much for free will.
8: Being influenced and being told what to do are two different things. If god determines what is right and wrong, then we are not living by our standards of right and wrong; we are living by his. And if we are living by the standards of another, that means we haven't determined what is right and wrong for ourselves; we've been deliberately directed. That's not a matter of "choice." That's direct intervention.
