Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?

[Godscreated]

[quote='Godschild' pid='858856' dateline='1422489116']

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1 That's all I've heard here, if God knows, if God knows, care to use some words other than those to prove your point. God says His desire is for all to be saved, how is that in any way connected to predetermination.

2 In what world? Just because God is all powerful doesn't necessarily mean He uses that power to control anything or anyone. If God had predetermined everyone's fate, then pray tell why did He find it necessary to give the law. If all human life is predetermined then no one can keep or break the law, they have no choice in the matter. Why send His Messiah, why allow his Son to become a man an die such a terrible death, why would He need to send Him from the comfort of heaven. Why would God through Jesus give us the two greatest commandments of love and tell us if we keep these two the rest will fall into place in our lives. There is choice in all these examples, you haven't given one thing to show how God has predetermined our lives.

3 That's the craziest thing I've heard yet, tell me why does He have to exert that power onto us, what rule exist that says he must. Because He doesn't choose to exert His power onto us doesn't mean He doesn't have it. Actually being all powerful means He can restrain from doing so.

4 Yet again the same old stuff, God does have power over all mankind that's a given. Through that power He's given us free will, to determine our destiny.

5 Then why the law, God being all that you yourself have said, then He would know the law would be completely useless a waste of time, being omniscient He wouldn't have given the law. He gave the law to give man choice and show man he could not make the right choices all the time, actually not even close to all the time.

6 Now you're contradicting what you said above, above you said God being omniscient and here your saying He couldn't be omniscient, it can't be both ways, you've a decision to make, ah yes, choice backed yourself into that one.

7 They came under judgment for wrong choices, choices that went to far beyond what God was going to allow. They were judged and condemned by the perfect God of creation. Christ came to intervene on our behalf for our wrong choices and He himself became a choice, we can choose to allow Him to direct our lives or we can choose to direct our own lives. I've done both, I truly have found choosing Christ to be far better.

8 I was wondering when you were going to get around to saying we have free will, by the way, you like Rhythm need to understand that the words you choose to use are not related to predetermination. Influence isn't even close to having ones life predetermined, actually influence supports free choice. If we are being influenced it is to show us there is another choice we can make.

GC

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Numbered everything for ease of using the quotes and replying to the individual segments at the same time.

1: Taking apart a single point of an argument that is self-contained pretty much betrays how much you're actually paying attention. That is to say, it shows you're not actually reading with the intent of hearing anything contrary to what you and you alone think, you're just being a contrarian for the sake of being the debating equivalent of a petulant screaming child. Have some respect for the fact I'm willing to actually spend some time discussing this with you and pay some fucking attention.

Really, that's what arguing an argument is about, if I'm not allowed IYO to take your argument apart then what's the since in have the argument. I'v asked a few questions and received no real answers from you. The most you attribute to this argument is how I do it wrong.

2-3: If you are ALL POWERFUL. Stick with me here, I know you have a VERY short attention span, but.

See you're doing it again, patronizing will get you no where.

If you are ALL POWERFUL. It means you are ALL POWERFUL. It means that the universe itself shapes to your will. The bible does not say he has the capacity for omnipotence. It says he IS omnipotent.

True scripture says God is omnipotent. I agree that the physical universe was formed by God's omniscience and omnipotence, but not the will of man, the scriptures are explicit about this. Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying. "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day you eat of it you shall surely die. This is a choice and the consequence of the choice is given, thus strengthening the man has a choice he alone can make.

It also says he is omnipresent. If he is present in everything, he is present in our actions, our thoughts, everything. If he is present in our actions and thoughts and he has power over everything then two plus two equals four and his power is being expressed in our actions.

Disagree, God is not present within everything and there is no where in scripture that says He is. God is omnipresent by knowing what's going on everywhere at all times. Meaning nothing escapes His knowing and knowing in no way means complete control nor predestination.

To make it REAL simple for you: All-present = Present in everything. Everything = EVERYTHING. All-powerful = Power over EVERYTHING. All-knowing = Knows EVERYTHING. If he is present in our actions, and has power over them, and knows what they will lead to, then he is influencing us directly, and with the power of foresight and hindsight. Strip away the part about omniscience if you need to make it simpler for you; he is present in everything. Our actions. Geddit yet? I can't spell it out any clearer, so if you don't, well, you're a lost cause and I'm wasting calories typing this.

Again your condescension towards me isn't a way to have a two sided argument. There's a big problem with your analysis and I pointed it out above. You are misinterpreting scripture when you say God is present in all things, here's another example, God isn't within you. Your misinterpretation of omnipresent throws off the reality of God's part in a persons life.

4: No, not the "same old thing," it's a part of a larger argument, which you would have realized if you were more interested in considering the point instead of just cutting it apart into pieces to rearrange into your own worldview's compatibility.

You are the one cutting the argument down into pieces and you do it explicitly to change the truth of God's part in His creation, so it fits your world view and then you are able to place your world view on God. Well it doesn't work that way, God is who He is and no matter what you want Him to be you can't change Him, especially for your advantage. I on the other hand have broken it down into easier to understand parts, not to change the unchangeable God, but to make it easier to see the overall picture.

5: Yeah, about that... Isn't the act of god giving mankind law him interfering in our lives? You know...interfering with out free will?

No, and any reasonable person could see it's not interfering, it's a guide to a better life if we choose to accept it, it's all about choice. Children's parents give them rules to guide, is that interference or is it love for the child's well being?

Why didn't he just let us figure things out on our own? If he has the power of perfect foresight, and he made this one action to set us on the right path, then why didn't he make a set of other actions to set us on the ABSOLUTE right path?

He did that exact thing, he said, "you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil," man couldn't even get that one right. One thing to do and free to choose and man screwed it up. The best answer to your question, free will. I'm sorry you can't see this and I really can't understand why you can't.

If he gave us free will, doesn't that mean we would know right from wrong from the get-go?

Yes, that should be obvious from the first three chapters of Genesis.

I mean, we'd be able to figure it out on our own, that's kind of what free will entails. I'm not arguing in favor of god's omni-abilities. I'm saying how they don't stack up with the claims about them or himself.

No, that should be obvious from the first three chapters of Genesis.
Free will only entails choice of right or wrong, your world view would agree with what you say, my world view base on scriptures says man continually makes bad choices. If God had predestined the fate of all man kind He would not have had to sent His Son to die for people who were unable to chose. The reason God's omnis do not stack up as you say, is because you've twisted the scriptures so they want.

6: Another example of "if you had read and considered the entire point as the whole that it is supposed to be and not picked it apart into neat little pieces you could re-arrange until it was no longer the original argument and had instead become a strawman, you'd get what I'm saying." Unfortunately, what you've done so far is... Well, take an equation. 1+ 2 + 3 = 6. What you've done thus far is go "1 DOESN'T EQUAL 6! 2 DOESN'T EQUAL 6! 3 DOESN'T EQUAL 6!" Take the entire argument into consideration as a whole; not the sum of its parts.

If the sum of the parts do not equal the entirety, then either the parts are wrong or the entirety is. The reason for argument is to take the argument apart and examine it. I must say the argument needs to be restated, "does man have free will either from God or from the point of evolution." My most stated argument in favor of free will is this, why are there laws, if there's no free will people could not keep them purposely, so why have them, even more so why punish someone who can't help what they do, if there is no choice there should be no need for law or punishment, until this can be reconciled there's no argument, free will does exist.

7: Ah, so god will give us free will...unless we use our free will too much, then he'll get mad and kill us? So much for free will.

Why is it that atheist who argue against free will can't understand the idea of consequences and justice. It seems to me that this should be easy to understand and I believe it is. So my conclusion has to be you ignore what you know for the sake of an argument, one most Christians believe in.

8: Being influenced and being told what to do are two different things. If god determines what is right and wrong, then we are not living by our standards of right and wrong; we are living by his.

What about the laws of the United States, do they predestine a persons life, I say not hardly. Laws, God's or a countries do not by necessity mean there's only one way to live, they mean there are consequences for choosing to live outside of them because others can be harmed. You need to understand something about God and maybe you do and just ignore it. God doesn't determine what's right and wrong, that might the case for man but not for God. What is right and wrong with God is what goes against who He is, now maybe that's hard for you to understand, but that's how it is.

And if we are living by the standards of another, that means we haven't determined what is right and wrong for ourselves; we've been deliberately directed. That's not a matter of "choice." That's direct intervention.

That all sounds good and well, but it's not how things actually work and you know it. Standards, as you put it, are there to help us live a better life, people do not have to choose that standard or some part of it, they are free to do what they determine, right or wrong. If a person lives in a country where they do not like the law, they can find another that allows them to do as they please, good luck with that though. Law isn't intervention never has been and never will be, it is a means to help a society last and not deteriorate under wrong and or bad choices. Right choices lead to a society that's worthwhile, wrong choices lead to the corruption of a society.

Now I'm never going to change what I believe about free will and my guess you want unless you took up this argument just to argue. So, I guess the best thing to do is agree not to agree. But answer this question for yourself, why do we send men and women into harms way and why do they give up their lives to defend the right of choice.

GC