RE: How Muslims believed earth was spherical long before anybody mentions it.
March 12, 2015 at 7:56 pm
(This post was last modified: March 12, 2015 at 8:07 pm by ReptilianPeon.)
Foreword: Things I have yet to address are the gravity verses, immigration to Western countries, the three scholars you cited and the Greek hollow Earth. Since this post is long, and it’s getting late, I’ll add a new post later where I address anything I haven’t mentioned in this post. Know that I aim to comment on everything in your reply and I'd like you to point out anything else that I haven't mentioned which you feel that I've left out of this post.
Thanks for your response AtlasS2, I appreciate it. I like to think that defy the majority myself. First, allow me to apologise for the actions of my country in helping to mess up the world. If I was old enough at the time I would have attended those anti-Iraq War protests. Even today, with the country having to cut back on spending David Cameron is still talking about going to war.
Turns out I had you all wrong, and I'm sorry! Hamza loves to lie to people and keep people on puppet strings so I'm so pleased that you ignore him. It's so hard to find a believer who also takes issue with what he says (mainly because they don't educate themselves enough to know that he's wrong). These converts, such as Hamza, love to beg people for money. They go on holiday to an exotic place and claim they are going on a 'Dawah Trip' just so they can get their lackeys, as opposed to themselves, to pay for it. They will never be able to hold a proper job.
The only people I see promoting your religion in the West are those funded, at least in part, by Saudi Arabia. To me this is really troubling. Saudi Arabia is a nasty country and they are trying to export their cultural hegemony by building Mosques and paying for Imams all over the world. It would be nice to see some people who aren’t Salafist/Wahhabi attempting to make a positive case for their religion. I wouldn’t go near Muhammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab with a barge pole, so to speak, because, if I’m not mistaken, he encouraged the destruction of many historic buildings.
After all, there aren’t just Sunnis, so the others need to speak up. The U.K. Mosque directory informs me that there are lots of Shia Mosques but I only see people promoting the ideas of Mr. Wahhab on the streets (because aren't Salafists basically Wahhabis who refuse to acknowledge Mr. Wahhab as their inspiration?) , though the does seem to be the odd Ahmadiyya too (I think) but it's extremely rare to find anyone who isn't promoting Mr. Wahhab's ideas. Presumably, there are some Ibadis too – and maybe when I have some time I’ll investigate the Ibadis in more detail since they often get ignored. I’m curious about them mainly because they predate Sunni/Shia and have their own separate set of Hadith.
Which, of course, brings me to my main problem with the Hadith: Who has the right Hadith? Is it Ibadi, Sunni or Shia? Just because the Sunnis are the most popular doesn’t make their Hadith any more true that the Ibadis and Shia collections. Even if 100% of believers thought the Sunni Hadith were the correct ones they could still be wrong.
Anyhow…moving on…
Firstly, in regard to Google Translate, it's not ideal and I regretted not elaborating on why I try and avoid Google Translate. A computer is no substitute for a Human and this article, A Warning From History For The Google Translate Generation, warns about young people not having proper language skills. It explains that machines do not have the ability to, and I quote, "consider the cultural context that gives each word its meaning" and mentions the Bible and the Quran in particular.
In regard to that (Greek) map you provided. I’ve actually seen it before. In my opinion, and maybe I’m misconstruing here, all it’s showing that the continents, i.e. the landmass, is coin shaped but crucially it’s not saying that the Earth is flat. You can have a coin shaped mass on a round Earth. This is simply how the Greeks thought the continents were shaped. In fact, nowhere in the article is the word “flat” mentioned. You’ll note that the landmasses are surrounded by ocean and not "the edge of the Earth" - this is simply because the Greek didn't explore that far and you'll also note how much of Europe is actually missing (e.g. British Isles, Scandinavia, Faeroe Islands).
But I have no doubt that the Romans, both Eastern and Western, were tyrannical. I’m tempted to compare them to the Mughal rulers of India but I know such a comparison is unhelpful. What I will say, however, is that I believe early Christians had it much worse than the Arabs, unless of course Arabs were also slaughtered mindlessly and any survivors fed to lions for the amusement of a crowd.
This actually brings me to another point. In the Quran it appears that Allah created Christianity by accident. Why would Allah make it appear as if Jesus was crucified knowing that it would create a new religion, a religion which would become the largest religion? This seems odd to me.
[url= http://www.quranx.com/4.157]Quran 4:157[/url] says this: “That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-“
I am actually beginning to have a real appreciation for Arab cuisine, by the way. From what I’ve tasted, it’s good and I feel compelled to by a recipe book and make my own Tagine and Falafels. Please don’t think I hate Arabs. I am deeply saddened when I hear the story of Omar Mukhtar, for example.
In regard to this:
But I have a problem with the verse. What it’s saying is that you should fight when Allah is unable or unwilling to protect you or does not want to stop the aggressors. Surely, Allah should defend those amongst the Ummah who have been wronged? It would be a perfect sign that the religion is the truth. I am sure Omar Mukhtar would have appreciated Allah's help against the Italians. It wasn't until millions of deaths later, after World War Two had ended, that Libya became independent. Is this right? I think Allah should have protected Omar much better than he did.
My family, both from England and Italy, comes from a protestant background (about 2% of Italians are Protestant I think), so when I go to visit family in Italy I hear all latest conspiracy theories about the Catholic Church. I’ve heard the Catholic Church actually doesn’t want people to read the Bible, and it is true that before the Bible was translated into languages other than Latin, the commoners couldn’t read it – because only rich people and clergy could speak Latin. My thoughts are that the Quran is the same. People expect you to just accept it and not read it for yourself. I think this can be said for all religious texts.
The video was interesting, by the way, and I’d love to know what’s inside of the Kaaba of Mecca. The structure has always fascinated me. In the era that we live in, with space travel becoming more prevalent, I’m sure the scholars will need to think deeply about prayer directions. How is somebody on the dark side of Earth’s moon, for example, supposed to do Salat and fast? They can’t pray towards Mecca and I have to doubt fasting will be awkward too – but that’s a topic for another time maybe.
Thanks for your response AtlasS2, I appreciate it. I like to think that defy the majority myself. First, allow me to apologise for the actions of my country in helping to mess up the world. If I was old enough at the time I would have attended those anti-Iraq War protests. Even today, with the country having to cut back on spending David Cameron is still talking about going to war.
Turns out I had you all wrong, and I'm sorry! Hamza loves to lie to people and keep people on puppet strings so I'm so pleased that you ignore him. It's so hard to find a believer who also takes issue with what he says (mainly because they don't educate themselves enough to know that he's wrong). These converts, such as Hamza, love to beg people for money. They go on holiday to an exotic place and claim they are going on a 'Dawah Trip' just so they can get their lackeys, as opposed to themselves, to pay for it. They will never be able to hold a proper job.
The only people I see promoting your religion in the West are those funded, at least in part, by Saudi Arabia. To me this is really troubling. Saudi Arabia is a nasty country and they are trying to export their cultural hegemony by building Mosques and paying for Imams all over the world. It would be nice to see some people who aren’t Salafist/Wahhabi attempting to make a positive case for their religion. I wouldn’t go near Muhammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab with a barge pole, so to speak, because, if I’m not mistaken, he encouraged the destruction of many historic buildings.
After all, there aren’t just Sunnis, so the others need to speak up. The U.K. Mosque directory informs me that there are lots of Shia Mosques but I only see people promoting the ideas of Mr. Wahhab on the streets (because aren't Salafists basically Wahhabis who refuse to acknowledge Mr. Wahhab as their inspiration?) , though the does seem to be the odd Ahmadiyya too (I think) but it's extremely rare to find anyone who isn't promoting Mr. Wahhab's ideas. Presumably, there are some Ibadis too – and maybe when I have some time I’ll investigate the Ibadis in more detail since they often get ignored. I’m curious about them mainly because they predate Sunni/Shia and have their own separate set of Hadith.
Which, of course, brings me to my main problem with the Hadith: Who has the right Hadith? Is it Ibadi, Sunni or Shia? Just because the Sunnis are the most popular doesn’t make their Hadith any more true that the Ibadis and Shia collections. Even if 100% of believers thought the Sunni Hadith were the correct ones they could still be wrong.
Anyhow…moving on…
Firstly, in regard to Google Translate, it's not ideal and I regretted not elaborating on why I try and avoid Google Translate. A computer is no substitute for a Human and this article, A Warning From History For The Google Translate Generation, warns about young people not having proper language skills. It explains that machines do not have the ability to, and I quote, "consider the cultural context that gives each word its meaning" and mentions the Bible and the Quran in particular.
In regard to that (Greek) map you provided. I’ve actually seen it before. In my opinion, and maybe I’m misconstruing here, all it’s showing that the continents, i.e. the landmass, is coin shaped but crucially it’s not saying that the Earth is flat. You can have a coin shaped mass on a round Earth. This is simply how the Greeks thought the continents were shaped. In fact, nowhere in the article is the word “flat” mentioned. You’ll note that the landmasses are surrounded by ocean and not "the edge of the Earth" - this is simply because the Greek didn't explore that far and you'll also note how much of Europe is actually missing (e.g. British Isles, Scandinavia, Faeroe Islands).
(March 12, 2015 at 5:34 pm)AtlasS2 Wrote: Thanks for the new info ; truly, I didn't know how spread greek language was. I thought it was latin.In terms of the Greek language, I think the reason the New Testament was written in Greek (and not the language Jesus spoke, Aramaic), is because the writers wanted their message to spread. Back then, right up to the days of Muhammad, I think it’s safe to assume, Greek was the language of trade. Greek was similar to English today. Hence, it made sense to learn the Greek language. Sure, Latin was important, I’ll accept that, but not until later when Greek was on its way out because of the decline of the Eastern Roman Empire.
But I have no doubt that the Romans, both Eastern and Western, were tyrannical. I’m tempted to compare them to the Mughal rulers of India but I know such a comparison is unhelpful. What I will say, however, is that I believe early Christians had it much worse than the Arabs, unless of course Arabs were also slaughtered mindlessly and any survivors fed to lions for the amusement of a crowd.
This actually brings me to another point. In the Quran it appears that Allah created Christianity by accident. Why would Allah make it appear as if Jesus was crucified knowing that it would create a new religion, a religion which would become the largest religion? This seems odd to me.
[url= http://www.quranx.com/4.157]Quran 4:157[/url] says this: “That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-“
(March 12, 2015 at 5:34 pm)AtlasS2 Wrote: You don't know the feeling of an Arab, when he watched hollywood movies, to find them all referring to him as a stupid crazy terrorist nomad.I might not know about the feelings of an Arab, but believe me, I know about stereotypes from Hollywood movies. Part of my family is from Italy, and I remember that at school I was accused of being in the Mafia. Most people weren’t as stupid as to accuse me of that but I can appreciate how it must feel to be on the receiving end of stereotypes. Fortunately, I can speak English without any trouble - otherwise my life would be a whole lot worse.
I am actually beginning to have a real appreciation for Arab cuisine, by the way. From what I’ve tasted, it’s good and I feel compelled to by a recipe book and make my own Tagine and Falafels. Please don’t think I hate Arabs. I am deeply saddened when I hear the story of Omar Mukhtar, for example.
In regard to this:
(March 12, 2015 at 5:34 pm)AtlasS2 Wrote: For example, according to the Quran, you cannot invade unless somebody invaded you ; so you needed to counter back to keep him at bay. Of course it's not so extreme ; Sun-Tzu would've told you the same, Richard the Lionheart would've told you the same either.I agree; Quran 22:39 says this: “To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;-"
But I have a problem with the verse. What it’s saying is that you should fight when Allah is unable or unwilling to protect you or does not want to stop the aggressors. Surely, Allah should defend those amongst the Ummah who have been wronged? It would be a perfect sign that the religion is the truth. I am sure Omar Mukhtar would have appreciated Allah's help against the Italians. It wasn't until millions of deaths later, after World War Two had ended, that Libya became independent. Is this right? I think Allah should have protected Omar much better than he did.
(March 12, 2015 at 5:34 pm)AtlasS2 Wrote: Do you see how the Quran is being read like a song ? nobody understands what is written. Your average Muslim leaves the explanation to the big beards you see at the front, your average Muslim rarely opens the Quran.This is exactly like the Christians and, by the way, the Bible can be read as song too if people desire, Psalms in particular because that chapter contains actual songs. However, I shouldn’t be comparing the Quran and the Bible because they are so different and the Bible is so much longer than the Quran so it’s not really a fair comparison.
My family, both from England and Italy, comes from a protestant background (about 2% of Italians are Protestant I think), so when I go to visit family in Italy I hear all latest conspiracy theories about the Catholic Church. I’ve heard the Catholic Church actually doesn’t want people to read the Bible, and it is true that before the Bible was translated into languages other than Latin, the commoners couldn’t read it – because only rich people and clergy could speak Latin. My thoughts are that the Quran is the same. People expect you to just accept it and not read it for yourself. I think this can be said for all religious texts.
The video was interesting, by the way, and I’d love to know what’s inside of the Kaaba of Mecca. The structure has always fascinated me. In the era that we live in, with space travel becoming more prevalent, I’m sure the scholars will need to think deeply about prayer directions. How is somebody on the dark side of Earth’s moon, for example, supposed to do Salat and fast? They can’t pray towards Mecca and I have to doubt fasting will be awkward too – but that’s a topic for another time maybe.
