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Muslims , please answer this .
#1
Muslims , please answer this .
When a Muslim who is living in 2018 , completely healthy and sane , pick up the Quran and start reading these verses :-

- Chapter ( the pilgremage ) Verse ( 65 ) /
Do you not see that God made everything on earth subservient to you? How the ships sail at sea by His command? That He holds up the sky lest it falls on earth—except by His permission? God is Gracious towards the people, Most Merciful.

- Chapter ( Luqman ) Verse ( 10 ) /
He created the heavens without pillars that you can see, and placed stabilizers on earth lest it shifts with you, and scattered throughout it all kinds of creatures. And from the sky We sent down water, and caused to grow therein of every noble pair.

- Chapter ( Thunder ) Verse ( 2 ) /
God is He who raised the heavens without pillars that you can see, and then settled on the Throne. And He regulated the sun and the moon, each running for a specified period. He manages all affairs, and He explains the signs, that you may be certain of the meeting with your Lord.

Now when a sane Muslim read these verses , does not that spark any suspicion at least ? 
There is no ( Physical solid ) sky ! There is no need for pillars or someone to hold it because there is Nothing up there ! it`s not like a physical roof which need pillars ! what you are looking at when you look above is Space , so basically "Nothing" ! Please use your cerebrum a little bit .
Was this the word of the creator of everything or just a man who thought that "sky" is a thing which need pillars  or someone to hold it up ?


Side question : Why does god need a throne any way ? and 8 angels to hold it up ? does the laws of gravity apply to him ? .
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#2
RE: Muslims , please answer this .
EA. Logic doesn't work here. It wasn't logic they got people hooked on Allah in the first place.
It was fear, conformity and compulsory indoctrination. How do you unfix that?
You don't and you can't. It needs to be a generational change. And probably involving a few civil wars. Good luck man. Stay safe.
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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#3
RE: Muslims , please answer this .
"I asked Imam Baqir (as) about the Baatin (inner or secret meaning) of this verse,

"And he caused rain to descend on you from sky, to clean you with it and to remove from you the uncleanness of Satan, to strengthen your hearts, and to establish your feet firmly." [8:11]


 


Imam (as) said, "The sky in the Baatin (inner or secret meaning) is the Prophet (saww), and the rain is Ali (as) and Allah made Imam Ali (as) from the Prophet (saww) and that is the saying of Allah, "(descended) the rain to clean you with it" and that is Ali (as), Allah purifies the hearts of those who Love Him. And regarding the saying of Allah, "And to remove from you the uncleanness of Satan", The one who loves Ali (as), the uncleanness is removed from him and his heart is strengthened. And the saying of Allah, "And to strengthen your hearts and establish your feet firmly", verily that is Ali (as), the one who loves Ali (as), Allah strengthens his heart through Ali (as) and establishes him upon His Wilayat."


 

[Source: Tafseer al-Ayyashi, Vol. 2, Pg. 50, Hadees. 25 & Tafseer-e-Furat, Pg. 153, Hadees. 190]


Before Atlas comes attacking me, I will prove this through context of Quran.

الر ۚ تِلْكَ آيَاتُ الْكِتَابِ وَقُرْآنٍ مُبِينٍ {1}
[size=undefined][size=undefined][Shakir 15:1] Alif Lam Ra. These are the verses of the Book and (of) a Quran that makes (things) clear.[/size][/size]
رُبَمَا يَوَدُّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْ كَانُوا مُسْلِمِينَ {2}
[size=undefined][size=undefined][Shakir 15:2] Often will those who disbelieve wish that they had been Muslims.[/size][/size]
ذَرْهُمْ يَأْكُلُوا وَيَتَمَتَّعُوا وَيُلْهِهِمُ الْأَمَلُ ۖ فَسَوْفَ يَعْلَمُونَ {3}
[size=undefined][size=undefined][Shakir 15:3] Leave them that they may eat and enjoy themselves and (that) hope may beguile them, for they will soon know.[/size][/size]
وَمَا أَهْلَكْنَا مِنْ قَرْيَةٍ إِلَّا وَلَهَا كِتَابٌ مَعْلُومٌ {4}
[size=undefined][size=undefined][Shakir 15:4] And never did We destroy a town but it had a term made known.[/size][/size]
مَا تَسْبِقُ مِنْ أُمَّةٍ أَجَلَهَا وَمَا يَسْتَأْخِرُونَ {5}
[size=undefined][size=undefined][Shakir 15:5] No people can hasten on their doom nor can they postpone (it).[/size][/size]
وَقَالُوا يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِي نُزِّلَ عَلَيْهِ الذِّكْرُ إِنَّكَ لَمَجْنُونٌ {6}
[size=undefined][size=undefined][Shakir 15:6] And they say: O you to whom the Reminder has been revealed! you are most surely insane:[/size][/size]
لَوْ مَا تَأْتِينَا بِالْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنْ كُنْتَ مِنَ الصَّادِقِينَ {7}
[size=undefined][size=undefined][Shakir 15:7] Why do you not bring to us the angels if you are of the truthful ones?[/size][/size]
مَا نُنَزِّلُ الْمَلَائِكَةَ إِلَّا بِالْحَقِّ وَمَا كَانُوا إِذًا مُنْظَرِينَ {8}
[size=undefined][size=undefined][Shakir 15:8] We do not send the angels but with truth, and then they would not be respited.[/size][/size]
إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ {9}
[size=undefined][size=undefined][Shakir 15:9] Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian.[/size][/size]
وَلَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ فِي شِيَعِ الْأَوَّلِينَ {10}
[size=undefined][size=undefined][Shakir 15:10] And certainly We sent (messengers) before you among the nations of yore.[/size][/size]
وَمَا يَأْتِيهِمْ مِنْ رَسُولٍ إِلَّا كَانُوا بِهِ يَسْتَهْزِئُونَ {11}
[size=undefined][size=undefined][Shakir 15:11] And there never came a messenger to them but they mocked him.[/size][/size]
كَذَٰلِكَ نَسْلُكُهُ فِي قُلُوبِ الْمُجْرِمِينَ {12}
[size=undefined][size=undefined][Shakir 15:12] Thus do We make it to enter into the hearts of the guilty;[/size][/size]
لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِهِ ۖ وَقَدْ خَلَتْ سُنَّةُ الْأَوَّلِينَ {13}
[size=undefined][size=undefined][Shakir 15:13] They do not believe in it, and indeed the example of the former people has already passed.[/size][/size]
وَلَوْ فَتَحْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ بَابًا مِنَ السَّمَاءِ فَظَلُّوا فِيهِ يَعْرُجُونَ {14}
[size=undefined][size=undefined][Shakir 15:14] And even if We open to them a gateway of heaven, so that they ascend into it all the while,[/size][/size]
لَقَالُوا إِنَّمَا سُكِّرَتْ أَبْصَارُنَا بَلْ نَحْنُ قَوْمٌ مَسْحُورُونَ {15}
[size=undefined][size=undefined][Shakir 15:15] They would certainly say: Only our eyes have been covered over, rather we are an enchanted people.[/size][/size]
وَلَقَدْ جَعَلْنَا فِي السَّمَاءِ بُرُوجًا وَزَيَّنَّاهَا لِلنَّاظِرِينَ {16}
[size=undefined][size=undefined][Shakir 15:16] And certainly We have made strongholds in the heaven and We have made it fair seeming to the beholders.[/size][/size]
وَحَفِظْنَاهَا مِنْ كُلِّ شَيْطَانٍ رَجِيمٍ {17}
[size=undefined][size=undefined][Shakir 15:17] And We guard it against every accursed Shaitan,[/size][/size]
إِلَّا مَنِ اسْتَرَقَ السَّمْعَ فَأَتْبَعَهُ شِهَابٌ مُبِينٌ {18}
[size=undefined][size=undefined][Shakir 15:18] But he who steals a hearing, so there follows him a visible flame.[/size][/size]
وَالْأَرْضَ مَدَدْنَاهَا وَأَلْقَيْنَا فِيهَا رَوَاسِيَ وَأَنْبَتْنَا فِيهَا مِنْ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ مَوْزُونٍ {19}
[size=undefined][size=undefined][Shakir 15:19] And the earth-- We have spread it forth and made in it firm mountains and caused to grow in it of every suitable thing.[/size][/size]
وَجَعَلْنَا لَكُمْ فِيهَا مَعَايِشَ وَمَنْ لَسْتُمْ لَهُ بِرَازِقِينَ {20}
[size=undefined][size=undefined][Shakir 15:20] And We have made in it means of subsistence for you and for him for whom you are not the suppliers.[/size][/size]
وَإِنْ مِنْ شَيْءٍ إِلَّا عِنْدَنَا خَزَائِنُهُ وَمَا نُنَزِّلُهُ إِلَّا بِقَدَرٍ مَعْلُومٍ {21}
[size=undefined][size=undefined][Shakir 15:21] And there is not a thing but with Us are the treasures of it, and We do not send it down but in a known measure.[/size][/size]
وَأَرْسَلْنَا الرِّيَاحَ لَوَاقِحَ فَأَنْزَلْنَا مِنَ السَّمَاءِ مَاءً فَأَسْقَيْنَاكُمُوهُ وَمَا أَنْتُمْ لَهُ بِخَازِنِينَ {22}
[size=undefined][size=undefined][Shakir 15:22] And We send the winds fertilizing, then send down water from the cloud so We give it to you to drink of, nor is it you who store it up.[/size][/size]
وَإِنَّا لَنَحْنُ نُحْيِي وَنُمِيتُ وَنَحْنُ الْوَارِثُونَ {23}
[size=undefined][size=undefined][Shakir 15:23] And most surely We bring to life and cause to die and We are the heirs.[/size][/size]






In brief, the context above shows that if God were to manifest Angels in their true form, it would be in the unseen, and then says if he would open a gateway to the heaven which is pertaining to the proof of Mohammad's claim, they would say they were going crazy rather then accept such proofs. Then it continue and says he made lanterns/strongholds in the heaven and made beautiful in the eyes of those who look.  And then talks about that realm higher realm is safeguarded from the devils except who steals a saying etc....

And talks about the treasure in the souls with respect to rain from the heaven.

And all this makes way for "therefore ask the family of the reminder" which comes in the next Surah and then again, 5 Surahs later. 

And the family of the reminder are with the reminder, they are stars that the highest realm (intellect of Mohammad at that time) is accompanied by.

There are parables to make us understand the nature of guidance and what we are connected to.

(April 21, 2018 at 8:42 am)ignoramus Wrote: EA. Logic doesn't work here. It wasn't logic they got people hooked on Allah in the first place.
It was fear, conformity and compulsory indoctrination. How do you unfix that?
You don't and you can't. It needs to be a generational change. And probably involving a few civil wars. Good luck man. Stay safe.

It's no wonder you guys don't see how amazing the Torah is, you're incapable of reflecting beyond literal.
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#4
RE: Muslims , please answer this .
Quote: (inner or secret meaning)

Yeah, MK.  Xhristards pull the same routine.  The fucking thing is literal except when it doesn't make any sense.  At that point it becomes "symbolic."  Excuses.....excuses.
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#5
RE: Muslims , please answer this .
It's not excuses when the Quran itself says it gave every type of parable (pertaining to guiding humans) and emphasized on it's parable nature.
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#6
RE: Muslims , please answer this .
Yeah.  It's an excuse.  Don't be so desperate to believe that you can't see bullshit before you step in it.
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#7
RE: Muslims , please answer this .
I suspected that i will receive a paragraph , I strongly think that if Mohammad was resurrected somehow he well be absolutely shocked on how his prank spread so far for so long .


Quote:(inner or secret meaning)


Oh my beautiful nature , I can`t , I just can`t .
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#8
RE: Muslims , please answer this .
إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَسْتَحْيِي أَنْ يَضْرِبَ مَثَلًا مَا بَعُوضَةً فَمَا فَوْقَهَا ۚ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا فَيَعْلَمُونَ أَنَّهُ الْحَقُّ مِنْ رَبِّهِمْ ۖ وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا فَيَقُولُونَ مَاذَا أَرَادَ اللَّهُ بِهَٰذَا مَثَلًا ۘ يُضِلُّ بِهِ كَثِيرًا وَيَهْدِي بِهِ كَثِيرًا ۚ وَمَا يُضِلُّ بِهِ إِلَّا الْفَاسِقِينَ {26}
[2:26] Surely Allah is not ashamed to set forth any parable-- (that of) a gnat or any thing above that; then as for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord, and as for those who disbelieve, they say: What is it that Allah means by this parable. He causes many to err by it and many He leads aright by it and He does not cause to err by it (any) except the transgressors.

And out of all beings, the least one to put a paradigm that he must be literal is the best and most sophisticated intelligence.
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#9
RE: Muslims , please answer this .
(April 21, 2018 at 8:08 am)Enli ghtened Ape Wrote: When a Muslim who is living in 2018 , completely healthy and sane , pick up the Quran and start reading these verses :-

- Chapter ( the pilgremage ) Verse ( 65 ) /
Do you not see that God made everything on earth subservient to you? How the ships sail at sea by His command? That He holds up the sky lest it falls on earth—except by His permission? God is Gracious towards the people, Most Merciful.

God actively sustaining the universe is a perfectly coherent idea.

I am not sure why you think a sane person would find a problem with this. Honestly, it looks like it's a you problem.

(April 21, 2018 at 8:08 am)Enli ghtened Ape Wrote: - Chapter ( Luqman ) Verse ( 10 ) /
He created the heavens without pillars that you can see

It can be easily reconciled with modern knowledge this way : God created physical laws (e.g. gravity among other things) in such a way that the stars and planets are attracted to each other without the need of pillars. Again, I don't see the problem.

(April 21, 2018 at 8:08 am)Enli ghtened Ape Wrote: There is no ( Physical solid ) sky ! 

And the Qur'an didn't say there is, but thank you for the info, captain obvious.

(April 21, 2018 at 8:08 am)Enli ghtened Ape Wrote:  There is no need for pillars or someone to hold it because there is Nothing up there ! 

Space is not nothing, it contains hydrogen and helium in low density, radiation, magnetic fields, cosmic rays..

(April 21, 2018 at 8:08 am)Enli ghtened Ape Wrote: what you are looking at when you look above is Space , so basically "Nothing" ! Please use your cerebrum a little bit .

Again, space is not nothing. Please use your google a little bit.

(April 21, 2018 at 8:08 am)Enli ghtened Ape Wrote: Side question : Why does god need a throne any way ?

It's not said anywhere in the Qur'an, or in the hadiths (even the fabricated ones), that God needs a throne.
Qur'anic revelation is the sole path to ultimate reality. All argumentation and philosophy is an expression of arrogance and an overestimation of human cognitive ability. 

"But believe me, Cleanthes, the most natural feeling that a well-disposed mind will have on this occasion is a longing desire and expectation that God will be pleased to remove or at least to lessen this profound ignorance, by giving mankind some particular revelation, revealing the nature, attributes, and operations of the divine object of our faith." (Hume's Dialogues)


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#10
RE: Muslims , please answer this .
When convenient, your interpretation is metaphorical, else, if such fits your a prior assumptions, it's literal.
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
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