Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: January 7, 2025, 5:00 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam.
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam.
(February 6, 2015 at 7:59 am)pocaracas Wrote: That it passed down intact and unchanged is a "mighty if", yes.

There may be sporadic variations here and there, yes, but large systematic variations are much more unlikely to occur, especially if there is a common and very basic idea that exists in at least most of the oral accounts. The idea that Muhammad claimed himself to be a prophet is something very big (and recurrent) in the oral traditions, so it's equally unlikely that someone else falsely attributed this claim of Prophethood to him at a later time without it being noticed by anyone else during that time.

I've been reading an interesting book on this subject, titled Memory in Oral Traditions: The Cognitive Psychology of Epic, Ballads, and Counting-out Rhymes. In the book, the author has carefully presented a comprehensive model - by synthesizing a multitude of empirical, theoretical, and historical research - of how oral traditions passed down through memory is more reliable than people nowadays imagine it to be. One of the conclusions is that "Oral traditions maximize memorability so that information can be stored without external memory aids for long periods of time" (p. 317). Evidently, there are many examples of ballad verses, poems, and songs produced by oral cultures in which the same basic ideas and some of the poetic structures have remained stable for centuries. The same holds for the preservation of everyday human affairs as well:

"In many situations, oral traditions provide a more appropriate model of everyday human behavior than do psychological experiments on memory. At times, people do have to remember what exactly happened on one particular occasion, as in eyewitness testimony. It is much more common, however, to abstract and remember the structure from many similar events, no one of which by itself is the best version. In general, people are better suited for the more common task (Bartlett, 1932; Neisser, 1981; Rubin, 1986)." - David C. Rubin, Memory in Oral Traditions, p. 7

"Western discourse has come to prioritize the written word as the dominant form of record keeping and until recently, Westerners have generally considered oral societies to be peoples without history. This could not be further from the truth. Oral societies record and document their histories in complex and sophisticated ways, including performative practices such as dancing and drumming. Although most oral societies, Aboriginal or otherwise, have now adopted the written word as a tool for documentation, expression and communication, many still depend on oral traditions and greatly value the oral transmission of knowledge as an intrinsic aspect of their cultures and societies."
http://indigenousfoundations.arts.ubc.ca...tions.html

"The western emphasis on textual evidence indicates an ethnocentric aversion to non-western methodology. Cultural blinders exist in many forms of historical research, like the written word, which limits the amount of knowledge a researcher can retrieve from a document. Certainly the same sort of limitations apply to different forms of textual research."
http://www.nps.gov/subjects/ugrr/discove...d-myth.htm

(February 6, 2015 at 7:59 am)pocaracas Wrote: And how do we come to know about those muslims?
Could the source that tells us this history be skewed? Could it be exaggerating? Could it be biased?
Could it be just boosting its numbers?
Could it have found the source of the rumor?

I find those questions pretty ironic given that you yourself were so conveniently bolstering your own rumor hypothesis with weak, non-verifiable responses such as "mighty IF," "It's a possible scenario," "That is one option of how things came to be," "This is another potential way things could have unraveled, for all I know" ... and yet now you're asking me questions which I cannot possibly verify with evidence. That's a nice double-standard you have there.

You don't accept oral tradition as history, so there is no other answer to those questions that will convince you, it seems.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Newtonscat - January 13, 2015 at 8:00 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 8:20 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Lucanus - January 13, 2015 at 8:35 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by vorlon13 - January 13, 2015 at 11:30 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - January 13, 2015 at 12:31 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - January 13, 2015 at 1:02 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Tonus - February 6, 2015 at 8:59 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - January 13, 2015 at 1:07 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Raven - January 13, 2015 at 1:10 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - January 13, 2015 at 1:26 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Mudhammam - February 5, 2015 at 5:32 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Raven - January 13, 2015 at 1:31 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by JesusHChrist - January 13, 2015 at 2:11 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - January 13, 2015 at 4:40 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - January 13, 2015 at 1:34 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Raven - January 13, 2015 at 1:47 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - January 13, 2015 at 1:54 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Raven - January 14, 2015 at 7:07 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - January 14, 2015 at 7:48 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by ManMachine - January 14, 2015 at 8:28 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - January 14, 2015 at 11:57 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - January 14, 2015 at 1:01 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by JesusHChrist - January 14, 2015 at 1:37 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - January 14, 2015 at 1:15 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by robvalue - January 14, 2015 at 1:21 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - January 14, 2015 at 2:29 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Cato - January 14, 2015 at 3:12 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by JesusHChrist - January 14, 2015 at 3:16 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - January 14, 2015 at 3:04 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - January 14, 2015 at 3:28 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Brian37 - January 14, 2015 at 3:37 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by JesusHChrist - January 14, 2015 at 3:51 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - January 14, 2015 at 4:59 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - January 15, 2015 at 6:39 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Brian37 - January 15, 2015 at 7:12 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - January 15, 2015 at 7:32 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - January 15, 2015 at 8:36 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - January 16, 2015 at 5:28 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Brian37 - January 16, 2015 at 8:45 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Mudhammam - January 17, 2015 at 3:19 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Brian37 - January 17, 2015 at 9:16 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by MysticKnight - January 14, 2015 at 5:45 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by JesusHChrist - January 14, 2015 at 5:55 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Brian37 - January 14, 2015 at 6:03 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - January 14, 2015 at 6:00 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by MysticKnight - January 14, 2015 at 6:39 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Brian37 - January 15, 2015 at 1:13 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by JesusHChrist - January 15, 2015 at 2:01 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Mudhammam - January 14, 2015 at 6:33 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - January 14, 2015 at 7:38 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Mudhammam - January 14, 2015 at 7:59 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - January 14, 2015 at 9:31 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by psychoslice - January 15, 2015 at 12:35 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - January 15, 2015 at 12:57 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by psychoslice - January 15, 2015 at 1:00 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Brian37 - January 15, 2015 at 7:21 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - January 15, 2015 at 1:41 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Lucanus - January 15, 2015 at 1:14 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - January 15, 2015 at 9:33 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - January 15, 2015 at 11:13 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - January 16, 2015 at 2:38 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by robvalue - January 17, 2015 at 1:54 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - January 18, 2015 at 10:01 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - January 19, 2015 at 6:38 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - January 19, 2015 at 9:02 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - January 20, 2015 at 5:24 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Wyrd of Gawd - January 19, 2015 at 9:03 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - January 19, 2015 at 9:26 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Wyrd of Gawd - January 19, 2015 at 9:35 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by dyresand - January 19, 2015 at 9:41 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Wyrd of Gawd - January 19, 2015 at 9:56 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by dyresand - January 19, 2015 at 10:05 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by CapnAwesome - January 19, 2015 at 9:38 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by JesusHChrist - January 20, 2015 at 11:41 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - January 21, 2015 at 6:17 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - January 21, 2015 at 7:37 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - January 21, 2015 at 8:49 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - January 22, 2015 at 6:08 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by robvalue - January 22, 2015 at 6:16 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by JesusHChrist - January 22, 2015 at 12:06 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - January 22, 2015 at 4:52 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - January 22, 2015 at 5:45 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - January 22, 2015 at 11:00 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - January 23, 2015 at 6:50 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - January 23, 2015 at 5:42 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - January 23, 2015 at 6:35 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - January 23, 2015 at 9:26 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - January 24, 2015 at 8:17 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - January 24, 2015 at 8:13 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - January 25, 2015 at 7:37 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - January 25, 2015 at 8:55 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - January 25, 2015 at 1:32 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Brian37 - January 25, 2015 at 8:03 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by robvalue - January 25, 2015 at 9:45 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - January 25, 2015 at 8:51 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Dystopia - January 25, 2015 at 8:52 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - January 26, 2015 at 5:16 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - January 28, 2015 at 5:45 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - January 28, 2015 at 7:20 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Brian37 - January 26, 2015 at 9:02 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - January 26, 2015 at 5:42 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - January 26, 2015 at 6:38 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by robvalue - January 27, 2015 at 5:27 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Brian37 - January 27, 2015 at 7:24 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by dyresand - January 28, 2015 at 5:47 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - January 28, 2015 at 6:11 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - January 28, 2015 at 6:53 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - January 29, 2015 at 6:03 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Hoopington - January 29, 2015 at 7:05 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - January 29, 2015 at 7:47 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by robvalue - January 29, 2015 at 7:04 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - January 29, 2015 at 7:29 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - February 1, 2015 at 6:05 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - February 1, 2015 at 6:46 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - February 2, 2015 at 2:33 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - February 2, 2015 at 5:38 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - February 2, 2015 at 6:02 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - February 2, 2015 at 4:43 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - February 2, 2015 at 6:11 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - February 2, 2015 at 4:52 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - February 2, 2015 at 5:37 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - February 2, 2015 at 5:54 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - February 2, 2015 at 6:09 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - February 2, 2015 at 6:23 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - February 3, 2015 at 6:40 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - February 3, 2015 at 7:03 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - February 3, 2015 at 7:05 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - February 3, 2015 at 8:38 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - February 3, 2015 at 7:12 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - February 5, 2015 at 5:11 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - February 5, 2015 at 6:02 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - February 5, 2015 at 5:42 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Mudhammam - February 5, 2015 at 6:00 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - February 5, 2015 at 6:31 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - February 5, 2015 at 6:37 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - February 5, 2015 at 6:51 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - February 5, 2015 at 6:50 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - February 5, 2015 at 7:39 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - February 6, 2015 at 6:32 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - February 6, 2015 at 7:59 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by robvalue - February 6, 2015 at 8:22 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by robvalue - February 6, 2015 at 9:07 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by CristW - February 14, 2015 at 8:00 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - March 13, 2015 at 10:34 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - March 14, 2015 at 5:57 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - March 13, 2015 at 10:49 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Rayaan - March 13, 2015 at 11:15 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - March 14, 2015 at 12:30 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Brian37 - March 13, 2015 at 11:15 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - March 16, 2015 at 8:57 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - March 16, 2015 at 9:09 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by CristW - March 19, 2015 at 11:51 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by pocaracas - March 20, 2015 at 11:58 am
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - March 23, 2015 at 8:07 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - March 23, 2015 at 8:15 pm
RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam. - by Minimalist - March 23, 2015 at 8:21 pm

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  The true story of Prophet Mohammed and His Young Wife Aisha Believe Heart 31 3220 September 25, 2022 at 11:48 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Was Prophet Mohammed a caravan thieve? WinterHold 171 21865 April 21, 2020 at 9:23 am
Last Post: Mr Greene
  Liberal Movement in Islam or Western Islam, the fight against islamic extremism Ashendant 16 8703 December 20, 2019 at 1:59 pm
Last Post: Deesse23
  Mohammed: model citizen or barbarian? Ex-Muslim reads the Hadiths mralstoner 2 1737 October 23, 2016 at 1:26 am
Last Post: Minimalist
  Charlie Hebdo journalist sees a problem with Islam and Mohammed mralstoner 5 1555 October 22, 2016 at 2:51 pm
Last Post: purplepurpose
  The Basics of Islam 3: Robert Spencer on Wasn't Muhammad Peaceful? mralstoner 3 1676 May 30, 2016 at 3:25 am
Last Post: Wyrd of Gawd
  IS: "Islam was never a religion of peace. Islam is the religion of fighting" Napoléon 11 6026 May 15, 2015 at 12:57 pm
Last Post: Hatshepsut
  Shots fired in Dallas of mohammed cartoons. downbeatplumb 68 14972 May 9, 2015 at 8:52 pm
Last Post: Hatshepsut
  Family of Mohammad in Quran - Proof Mohammad founded Islam! Mystic 27 5983 March 22, 2015 at 12:15 am
Last Post: Wyrd of Gawd
  Islamic State - Do We Believe Obama or Mohammed? mralstoner 12 4015 October 15, 2014 at 9:42 pm
Last Post: mralstoner



Users browsing this thread: 11 Guest(s)