(September 15, 2010 at 12:31 pm)Ace Wrote: [quote='Watson']What are we talking about here by 'endless torture'? What is the torture, is it endless, and how does one earn it? Also, you make the mistake of calling disbelief 'victimless'. It is not victimless, because the person disbelieving is the victim; seperation from God is the torture, and that is Hell.
Ace Wrote:Do keep in mind that theists don't all agree on what hell is.
Also what do you mean disbelief isn't victemless. I'm not harming myself. I'm just great. It is victemless. I was born with lack of belief and have always lacked belief and felt no ill effect. Also if hell is nothing more than being seperate from god then I'm fine with that. Since I've lived my whole life without belief in him. Hardly torture.
Ace the first thing that has to be established about this question is it torture or a punishment. God has made a hell and it's a place all nonbelievers will reside eternally. If hell is a torture chamber then why is there no one to do the tortureing? Satan is not the torturer nor his demons they will all be in the same fix so to speak. God is not the torturer for He will not reside in hell nor will any of His angels or the saved of this world, God says that when all is finished there will be a gulf so wide that no one will cross it. God also can not be the torturer because He is the judge that is going to give all nonbelievers there choice of being seperated from Him eternally and in the above bold you say yourself seperation is not torture. So logically to have torture there must be one who tortures and the one being tortured must consider it torture.
Ace you also go on about a punishment for a victimless crime and if I'm not mistaken you say that humans do not punish for victimless crimes. So let's go with your definition of victimless crime, you have stated that if what one does or thinks, does no harm to another then there is no crime thus there should be no punishment. OK what about speeding there is a fine which is considered to be a form of punishment, yet you did not hurt anyone. Do it again and again and soon you will lose your license to drive, this would be a more severe punishment for your victimless crime. Now you are caught driving several times with out a license and you will spend some time in jail and this punishment is more severe than the last and this is for a victimless crime as you define it. You still insist on driving with out a license and the punishment continues to be more severe and the punishment continues for your victimless crime. You never hurt anyone yet you were punished, actually you did hurt yourself by all the money and time that you lost, your reputation suffered also. Yes there are punishments for victimless crimes because there is a standard of law to obey, this is to stop a crime from having a victim, an innocent victim if you kill someone when you are speeding.
Ace you are right there are different views of what hell is like among christians but there is one point we all agree on and that's there is a hell. I have tried to give my view on this before and it was met with the response of HOGWASH. I'm not sure if it was you or someone else that gave that response, I see no need in going for a second HOGWASH.
A couple of verses to give you to show some off what I believe: Matt.25:46 says "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." The same greek word is used to discribe punishment and life, if the punishment does not last forever, the life can not last forever and if one exists no more then how is it possible to have punishment for one who exists no more.
2Thess.1:8-10 says 8) dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9) And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10) when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed__ for our testimony to you was believed. Being a nonbeliever will be your choice and eternal destruction is the result of your choice, which scripture says will give God no pleasure. The believers will bring glory to the Lord and will have their place in eternal glory ie. Heaven. The greek word for eternal in verse 9 is the same greek word used in Matthew and it does mean everlasting.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
