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Another "I saw Jesus" claim
#89
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim
(May 17, 2015 at 1:28 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:
(May 17, 2015 at 12:46 pm)abaris Wrote: Which not even the Roman Catholic church accepts as genuine or miraculous.

[Image: ShroudPope.jpg]
St. John Paul II

[Image: _47765553_shroud512.jpg]

Pope Benedict XVI
Quote: Strong evidence against the authenticity of the shroud:

  • Respected, trusted and very reliable scientific carbon dating has placed the shroud's origin around the 14th century, specifically between 1260 and 1390 CE.
  • The provenance or history of the shroud can only be traced back to the 14th century. The earliest written record of the shroud is a Catholic bishop's report to Pope Clement VII, dated 1389, stating that it originated as part of a faith-healing scheme, and that a predecessor had "discovered the fraud and how the said cloth had been cunningly painted, the truth being attested by the artist who had painted it". In 1390, Pope Clement VII declared that it was not to be claimed that it was the true burial cloth of Jesus.
  • [Image: mummy.gif] The Bible gives clear details of Jesus' burial cloth — linen strips and a separate cloth for the head — that clearly conflicts with the shroud, which is one large rectangular piece.
    'Taking Jesus' body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs.' [Jn 19:40] 'So Peter... reached the tomb first. He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. Then Simon Peter... went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen.' [Jn 20:3-7] 'Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves...' [Lk 24:12]
  • Note also that Jesus was wrapped buried 'in accordance with Jewish burial customs'. Jesus was not the only person in the Bible to rise from the dead, so did Lazarus, and following Jewish burial customs he was also wrapped in strips of linen:
    'The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. Jesus said to them, "Take off the grave clothes and let him go."' [Jn 11:44]
  • The Bible described 75 to 100 pounds of spices being wrapped in the burial cloth. No traces of spices have been found on the shroud. [Jn 19:40]
  • The Bible quotes Jesus as saying there are nail holes in his hands from the crucifixion. By contrast the shroud image has no wounds in his hands but one in his wrist. [Jn 20:24-27]
  • No examples of the shroud linen's complex herringbone twill weave date from the first century. However the weave was used in Europe in the Middle Ages, coincidentally when the shroud first appeared.
  • The clear implication of all three synoptic gospels is that the material was bound tightly round the body, yet the Shroud of Turin shows an image made by simply lying a linen shroud on top of the front of the body, over the head and down the back. There is a lack of wrap-around distortions that would be expected if the cloth had enclosed an actual three-dimensional object like a human body. Thus the cloth was never used to wrap a body as described in the Bible. If the image had been formed when the cloth was around Jesus' corpse it would have been distorted when the cloth was flattened out.
  • There are serious anatomical problems with the image, such as the height of the body, length of limbs, ears missing, front and back images not matching, hair hanging the wrong way etc. (More details further in the article.)
  • There is no blood on the shroud: all the forensic tests specific for blood, and only blood, have failed. There is no trace of sodium, chlorine or potassium, which blood contains in high amounts and which would have been present if the stains were truly blood. The alleged bloodstains are unnaturally picture-like. Real blood spreads in cloth and mats on hair, and does not form perfect rivulets and spiral flows. Also, dried "blood" (as on the arms) has been implausibly transferred to the cloth. The alleged blood remains bright red, unlike genuine blood that blackens with age. All the wounds, made at different times according to the Gospel accounts, appear as if still bleeding, even though blood does not generally flow after death. A corpse does not bleed, however it can leak blood through an open wound due to gravity. This could explain some blood but not all the bleeding wounds or the unexpected detail in the blood flow.
  • The Bible [John 19:40] indicates that Jesus' burial followed Jewish customs. Thus, Joseph of Arimethea would have washed the body. Since he had time to wrap in the spices, he would have had time to wash it. The body shown in the shroud was not washed.
  • Microscopic analysis showes significant traces of what could be paint pigment on image areas.
Circumstantial evidence against the authenticity of the shroud:
  • The shroud surfaced in France exactly at the height of the 'holy relic' craze, the collection of patently false relics relating to Jesus. Not one such relic has ever been proved to be genuine, and the faking of relics was rife at this time. There were at least between 26 and 40 'authentic' burial shrouds scattered throughout the abbeys of Europe, of which the Shroud of Turin was just one. One source writes that 'In medieval Europe alone, there were "at least forty-three 'True Shrouds"' (Humber 1978, 78)'.
  • There is no mention of a miraculously imaged Shroud in the New Testament or any early Christian writings. Surely, given the desire for miraculous proof of the divine nature of Jesus, such a relic would have rated a mention? The image on the cloth would presumably have been at its brightest and most obvious. So why don't the gospels, who mentioned the linen used to wrap the body, bother to mention this miraculous image? The most obvious answer is that you can't write about an image that isn't there.
  • The image on the shroud has his hands neatly folded across his genitals. A real body lying limp could not have this posture. Your arms are not long enough to cross your hands over your pelvis while keeping your shoulders on the floor. To achieve this the body can not lie flat, yet Jewish burial tradition did not dictate that a body must be hunched up so as to cover the genitals before wrapping in the shroud. The most obvious answer is that the artist knew the image would be displayed and didn't want to offend his audience or have to guess what the genitals of Jesus would look like. A dead body wrapped from head to toe in an opaque cloth wouldn't be concerned with modesty since he wasn't actually naked. He was well covered.
  • The Vatican, the one organisation with a vested interest in its authenticity, refuses to say the shroud is authentic. The Vatican has performed more tests on it than any other group, it has more documentary evidence on its history than any other group and it also has the Pope, God's representative here on earth. Surely he could ask God if it's a fake? Perhaps he has. Perhaps the Vatican's silence on this matter is telling? Actually Pope John Paul II is on record as saying, "The Church has no specific competence to pronounce on these questions. She entrusts to scientists the task of continuing to investigate". Say what now? "No specific competence" to have an opinion on the origin of a dirty piece of cloth, but you can't shut them up regarding the origin of the universe and life. The conservative Catholic Encyclopedia actually argues that the shroud is probably not authentic.
    http://www.sillybeliefs.com/shroud.html

Quote:"The Shroud of Turin is one of the many relics manufactured for profit during the Middle Ages. Shortly after the Shroud emerged it was declared a fake by the bishop who discovered the artist."

Quote:"The 'blood' has been definitively proved to be composed of red ocher and vermilion tempera paint."
http://www.truthbeknown.com/shroud.htm

Quote:I made this observation many years ago, the first time I saw a photo of the shroud that shows the full length of the body. One of my first reactions was along the lines of, "Wow... Good thing his hands are covering his private area." It would certainly embarrass many people if the shroud revealed the full nakedness of the man they think is Jesus - privates and all. He was fully human during his lifetime, but we needn't see his genitals.
Quote:AN EXPERIMENT TO TRY

I know what you're thinking: "That's just the way his body and arms were positioned when he was laid in his tomb."

I think not. And you can perform your own little experiment to demonstrate why not.

Lie on your back on a hard surface (such as the floor) as the figure is in the image, and just try to cover your privates with your hands. I am a person of average proportions and I had to stretch my arms with some effort to be able to barely cover them. Yet the figure in the shroud image seems to be accomplishing this with relaxed ease. The arms don't appear to be stretched out at all.
http://paranormal.about.com/od/religious...s-Fake.htm

Google is your friend and the shroud of Turin is a horrible fake that shouldn't trick even the dumber kids in the modern year of 2015.
Find the cure for Fundementia!
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Messages In This Thread
Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Foxaèr - May 16, 2015 at 6:21 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Randy Carson - May 16, 2015 at 6:25 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Longhorn - May 16, 2015 at 6:25 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - May 16, 2015 at 6:28 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by dyresand - May 16, 2015 at 6:28 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by abaris - May 16, 2015 at 6:32 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Randy Carson - May 16, 2015 at 6:43 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Foxaèr - May 16, 2015 at 6:45 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Randy Carson - May 16, 2015 at 11:49 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Longhorn - May 16, 2015 at 6:45 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by abaris - May 16, 2015 at 6:51 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - May 16, 2015 at 6:54 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Ravenshire - May 17, 2015 at 1:18 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Minimalist - May 17, 2015 at 1:27 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Mudhammam - May 17, 2015 at 3:06 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by abaris - May 17, 2015 at 10:04 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Minimalist - May 16, 2015 at 7:43 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Nope - May 16, 2015 at 8:03 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by robvalue - May 17, 2015 at 1:08 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Randy Carson - May 17, 2015 at 9:51 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Mudhammam - May 17, 2015 at 2:11 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Ravenshire - May 17, 2015 at 4:11 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Randy Carson - May 17, 2015 at 10:13 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Foxaèr - May 17, 2015 at 10:30 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Cyberman - May 17, 2015 at 11:27 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Randy Carson - May 17, 2015 at 12:15 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Cyberman - May 17, 2015 at 12:21 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Randy Carson - May 17, 2015 at 12:30 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Foxaèr - May 17, 2015 at 12:54 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by abaris - May 17, 2015 at 12:58 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Longhorn - May 17, 2015 at 12:21 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by abaris - May 17, 2015 at 12:23 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Minimalist - May 17, 2015 at 12:26 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Cyberman - May 17, 2015 at 12:28 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Randy Carson - May 17, 2015 at 12:37 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by dyresand - May 17, 2015 at 12:43 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by abaris - May 17, 2015 at 12:46 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Randy Carson - May 17, 2015 at 1:28 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by abaris - May 17, 2015 at 1:42 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Randy Carson - May 17, 2015 at 2:09 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by abaris - May 17, 2015 at 3:08 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Brakeman - May 22, 2015 at 1:10 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Cyberman - May 17, 2015 at 12:35 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Cyberman - May 17, 2015 at 12:42 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Cyberman - May 17, 2015 at 12:47 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Cyberman - May 17, 2015 at 1:03 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by dyresand - May 17, 2015 at 1:06 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Cyberman - May 17, 2015 at 1:22 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Minimalist - May 17, 2015 at 1:58 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Wyrd of Gawd - May 18, 2015 at 11:45 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Mudhammam - May 19, 2015 at 8:45 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Wyrd of Gawd - May 19, 2015 at 6:19 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Mudhammam - May 19, 2015 at 7:00 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Cyberman - May 17, 2015 at 2:35 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Minimalist - May 17, 2015 at 3:40 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Brian37 - May 17, 2015 at 4:01 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Foxaèr - May 19, 2015 at 12:12 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Cyberman - May 19, 2015 at 12:46 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Minimalist - May 19, 2015 at 8:04 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Mudhammam - May 19, 2015 at 8:13 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Minimalist - May 20, 2015 at 1:52 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Mudhammam - May 20, 2015 at 1:55 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Minimalist - May 22, 2015 at 12:37 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Wyrd of Gawd - May 19, 2015 at 6:07 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by abaris - May 19, 2015 at 6:12 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Wyrd of Gawd - May 19, 2015 at 11:17 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Mudhammam - May 20, 2015 at 12:09 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Wyrd of Gawd - May 20, 2015 at 12:39 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Mudhammam - May 20, 2015 at 1:38 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Wyrd of Gawd - May 20, 2015 at 2:19 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Mudhammam - May 20, 2015 at 2:32 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Wyrd of Gawd - May 20, 2015 at 2:41 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Mudhammam - May 20, 2015 at 2:46 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Mudhammam - May 19, 2015 at 11:17 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Cyberman - May 20, 2015 at 12:29 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Wyrd of Gawd - May 20, 2015 at 1:39 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Mudhammam - May 20, 2015 at 1:39 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Wyrd of Gawd - May 20, 2015 at 2:32 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Mudhammam - May 20, 2015 at 2:38 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Wyrd of Gawd - May 20, 2015 at 2:50 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Mudhammam - May 20, 2015 at 7:17 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Wyrd of Gawd - May 20, 2015 at 5:56 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Mudhammam - May 21, 2015 at 12:15 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Wyrd of Gawd - May 23, 2015 at 1:13 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Mudhammam - May 23, 2015 at 12:48 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Wyrd of Gawd - May 23, 2015 at 11:48 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by robvalue - May 20, 2015 at 2:47 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Spooky - May 21, 2015 at 12:28 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Cyberman - May 21, 2015 at 10:47 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by RobbyPants - May 22, 2015 at 10:52 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by VeggieDog - May 22, 2015 at 12:19 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by RobbyPants - May 22, 2015 at 12:52 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Randy Carson - May 23, 2015 at 11:56 am
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by Minimalist - May 22, 2015 at 1:23 pm
RE: Another "I saw Jesus" claim - by KevinM1 - May 22, 2015 at 3:13 pm

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