Tonus Wrote:They are usually referring to a specific god or a specific description of god. No one wants to live under a tyrant, and if they see god described as a tyrant, it's natural that they reject that god. Keeping in mind that until any god makes his existence known, it's hypothetical to them as well.
Some may have, but a great many atheist here have said they would not serve the God of the Bible even if He appeared to them.
Tonus Wrote:I don't think he would be correct. I don't see why god would give us the ability to turn away from him if the only possible outcome of that is eternal torment. It's a pretty fine line between offering that and forcing us to obey. How free can we really be when one of the two choices ends in the worst possible outcome?
He accused God of lying when he deceived Eve, that in itself shows Satan has no limit to his evil. He gives us this ability to choose what we want for our lives because He wants only those who love Him to spend eternity with Him. Those who choose Christ and stand with Him love Him and those who love Christ love the Father and the Holy Spirit. Free enough to choose not to go into eternal punishment. Jesus said, the way to eternal destruction is a wide road with a wide gate and the way to eternal life is a narrow road with a narrow gate. He was say there is a big difference and not a fine line, He's saying that it's apparent the choice we have.
Tonus Wrote:But this implies that they were expected to obey without question. In the face of deception, their only recourse was blind obedience to god, otherwise they risked damnation. That doesn't seem very different from the concept of forced love.
Correct they were to obey without question, as you had stated before in our conversation god walked with them and talked to them, I'm assuming He taught them what obedience consisted of. God gave then the freedom to choose the deception or to obey, they allowed self interest to over ride what they had learned.
Tonus Wrote:I meant risky for god, in the sense that he desires for everyone to be saved, yet implements a situation that he knows many will fail. If each lost soul pains god in the way that a lost child pains its parents, he has placed an enormous burden upon himself, even though it's in his power to change it in a way that makes it better for everyone: him and all of humanity.
Yes, I understand you meant God, but what risk does an omniscient and omnipotent God actually face, risk involves the unknown and God knows all. God knew all would not be saved yet it was His desire because He loves people enough to give them the chance they want take.
How could it be better for those who do not want to spend eternity with God, should God force them, would that be love on God's part, to me that would be tyranny. It's not within God's power to change the plan of salvation, this plan is His will, it comes from His omniscient mind. If God were to change the plan now what would those who do not want to spend eternity with Him do, they would be mad, they would accuse Him of fallibility and Satan would be at the head of the group.
Tonus Wrote:But with a very bad end to those whose desires do not follow those of god. It's a bad choice because god has the capability to save us all if he chooses. He chooses a situation where most will fail and suffer. That is a bad setup. Why couldn't we have the freedom to choose anything except to reject god? Is it really a bad thing to be incapable of choosing only the things that would be bad for us? Would world be a worse place if no one felt the urge to hurt one another?
That's the risk I explained in my last post, but it's also what choice is about. Again it's not God's choice, it's about the gift of choice He has given us, our gift to do as we want to, not as we're made to do. God's not setting anyone up, He's giving us a gift, one to experience as we desire, our desire overrides His in this instance.
The world would be a better place if everyone chose not to hurt others but, the last few thousand years have shown us this isn't part of who man is. If we were incapable of choosing bad things then where is choice. We choose between things all the time and inevitably we will chose bad things because we can't see the future. In the case of salvation God shows us the future and we actually know which decision is bad, so is there an excuse for choosing wrong when it comes to salvation.
Tonus Wrote:I don't know how to judge my time as a Christian. To the believer, there has to be an explanation that covers what they expect from god, and so it is not possible that I was sincere or that I was doing it the right way. To me, it seems much more sensible to recognize the extent to which we interpret our lives when we want god to be real, and understand that if we have to do all the lifting, then god is either very lazy or not there.
Have you actually given that time the thought and consideration it justly needed. Could it be the bold above, by me, is how you felt. If so I think you've made the same mistake many Christians do. It's not about what God does for us, it is about living the life He a has planned for us as Christians, God knows these plans and will provide for the believer what he/she needs and bring blessings to us. Now these blessings are not necessarily physical things, but some of them could be, I've experienced both but, the ones that mean the most and I remember the most are those that were not physical.
Tonus Wrote:I've skipped over any parts that I don't want to respond to or that I am satisfied with your reply. You can consider those points conceded in your favor.
I'm not even sure what to say here, so I guess I'll say thank you and hope no one thinks me arrogant.
I enjoy our conversations and I do thank you for good sensible conversation, conversation that can give both of us things to consider.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
