RE: The argument against "evil", theists please come to the defense.
July 24, 2012 at 2:23 am
(This post was last modified: July 24, 2012 at 2:28 am by Skepsis.)
Thanks for butchering my quote.
Might want to fix that so I can understand what you are trying to say.
ANNNND they're off!
Evil/negative force necessarily opposes God in physics?
I see what you are trying to say, but I won't let you off the hook without proving your statements. Why is God= creator= positive and vice versa, with unknown evil force "x" being the negative force?
You still have'nt proven why creation is necessarily positive, in the general sense nor in the "special" case of original creation.
I can make assertions too.
Your argument is that evil must exist in conjunction with good. You still haven't answered why a morally perfect God would have created a world with suffering of any kind, much less the huge amount of unnecessary suffering that exists. Why did he have to create any world at all?
The point of contention is NOT that suffering is logically unnecessary in a world without an omnibenevolent creator God.
You must not have ever heard this argument before, or seriously misunderstood it.
So here it is: A perfectly moral God creates a world. He can create ANY world. He creates a world with unnecessary suffering (i.e., suffering that could have been averted by creating a different world or crafting physical laws differently). This created world is incompatible with a God of any kind of compassion. Just because this world must have suffering and you assume it to be God's creation doesn't make it so.
Basically, we aren't assuming a world under natural contexts, but rather under the context of a perfectly moral creator God.
He could make ANY world.
He made this world.
It not only has suffering, but unnecessary suffering.
...
Anyway, your argument fails to address suffering in the context of an omnibenevolent creator. You have effectively avoided the objection.
No, a God didn't need to create this world or any world at all. You keep assuming this, but I assure you it hasn't been proven that a God needed to have created this world. He could have created any world, being as powerful as he is. But he chose this one, and therein lies the problem; why didn't your God choose not to create a world with suffering, opting out of creation? Or, why didn't he make the world with no unnecessary suffering?
Unnecessary suffering still kills your argument, any way you cut the cake.
Sorry, I am not familiar to your personal brand of Christianity. If your God created all things, he is directly responsible for all things, including any and all destructive forces or the possibility for destructive forces.
I find it odd that you label creation positive and destruction negative, because anything ever created will eventually be destroyed. Is time the destructive force you are labeling "negative"? Because God created this too- creation directly creating destruction.
But I don't want to lose my mind in your useless waffle, so I won't bother.
It's not important. I would prefer to keep this as direct as possible and avoid other topics.
If only I could avoid this positive and negative creation destruction good evil stuff too, as it reminds me of circus kooks and television psychics.
Might want to fix that so I can understand what you are trying to say.
ANNNND they're off!
(July 24, 2012 at 1:30 am)fr0d0 Wrote: And like I responded, god is not responsible for evil/ the negative force, that necessarily, in physics, opposes him. God works with physics, in that he provides the positive. In him is life.Lolwut?
Evil/negative force necessarily opposes God in physics?
I see what you are trying to say, but I won't let you off the hook without proving your statements. Why is God= creator= positive and vice versa, with unknown evil force "x" being the negative force?
You still have'nt proven why creation is necessarily positive, in the general sense nor in the "special" case of original creation.
(July 24, 2012 at 1:30 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Now a notion of anti physics; of life being possible without death, is logically impossible. It kinda wrecks the happy train before it has chance to leave the station. As many atheist will attest: what we have to do is accept reality as it is. God cannot be logically impossible. I think you conceded that above. So God could not create happy land."God cannot be logically impossible."
I can make assertions too.
Your argument is that evil must exist in conjunction with good. You still haven't answered why a morally perfect God would have created a world with suffering of any kind, much less the huge amount of unnecessary suffering that exists. Why did he have to create any world at all?
(July 24, 2012 at 1:30 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Please explain how any suffering is unnecessary. If it is necessary for this logical world to function, then it is encompassed in Gods design. We may not understand fully the scientific processes. But I doubt very much that any scientist would agree that it (the process of suffering as part of life) would be illogical.
The point of contention is NOT that suffering is logically unnecessary in a world without an omnibenevolent creator God.
You must not have ever heard this argument before, or seriously misunderstood it.
So here it is: A perfectly moral God creates a world. He can create ANY world. He creates a world with unnecessary suffering (i.e., suffering that could have been averted by creating a different world or crafting physical laws differently). This created world is incompatible with a God of any kind of compassion. Just because this world must have suffering and you assume it to be God's creation doesn't make it so.
Basically, we aren't assuming a world under natural contexts, but rather under the context of a perfectly moral creator God.
He could make ANY world.
He made this world.
It not only has suffering, but unnecessary suffering.
(July 24, 2012 at 1:30 am)fr0d0 Wrote: My argument specifically confronts suffering. There is no such thing as unnecessary suffering in this reality. Only in your fantasy reality, where the illogical is possible."Only in the Fantasy Reality, where the illogical is logical, the impossible, possible, and the unimaginable imaginable! See it in theaters today!"
...
Anyway, your argument fails to address suffering in the context of an omnibenevolent creator. You have effectively avoided the objection.
(July 24, 2012 at 1:30 am)fr0d0 Wrote: God cannot logically remove suffering from a logical world, so an argument against the need for suffering has to dismiss logic.BLEEP! Wrong answer.
No, a God didn't need to create this world or any world at all. You keep assuming this, but I assure you it hasn't been proven that a God needed to have created this world. He could have created any world, being as powerful as he is. But he chose this one, and therein lies the problem; why didn't your God choose not to create a world with suffering, opting out of creation? Or, why didn't he make the world with no unnecessary suffering?
Unnecessary suffering still kills your argument, any way you cut the cake.
(July 24, 2012 at 1:30 am)fr0d0 Wrote: God never acts contrary to his nature. I've shown what constituted Gods actions, and how the negative counter is not God.
Sorry, I am not familiar to your personal brand of Christianity. If your God created all things, he is directly responsible for all things, including any and all destructive forces or the possibility for destructive forces.
I find it odd that you label creation positive and destruction negative, because anything ever created will eventually be destroyed. Is time the destructive force you are labeling "negative"? Because God created this too- creation directly creating destruction.
But I don't want to lose my mind in your useless waffle, so I won't bother.
(July 24, 2012 at 1:30 am)fr0d0 Wrote: The creation of a world without evil is logically impossible full stop. It does not negate the presence of an all loving god, who's presence serves to counter evil.Yes! So why does this world exist at all if your God is omnibenevolent?
(July 24, 2012 at 1:30 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Please explain.
It's not important. I would prefer to keep this as direct as possible and avoid other topics.
If only I could avoid this positive and negative creation destruction good evil stuff too, as it reminds me of circus kooks and television psychics.
My conclusion is that there is no reason to believe any of the dogmas of traditional theology and, further, that there is no reason to wish that they were true.
Man, in so far as he is not subject to natural forces, is free to work out his own destiny. The responsibility is his, and so is the opportunity.
-Bertrand Russell
Man, in so far as he is not subject to natural forces, is free to work out his own destiny. The responsibility is his, and so is the opportunity.
-Bertrand Russell