(November 26, 2014 at 7:44 pm)KevinM1 Wrote:(November 26, 2014 at 5:18 pm)Godschild Wrote: Your seems are not facts, care to show some. Sin makes people mindless twits.
GC
Well, Nope already provided some of the relevant lines. There are a few more:
Quote:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
They ate the fruit of the tree, their eyes were opened to reality, and god was angered/disappointed by this:
The scriptures do not say their eyes were open to reality, it does say their eyes were opened to evil, which by the way was not a reality in their world until they disobeyed God. Yes God was angered but not disappointed, He had every right to be.
Quote:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Quote:Because they had gained knowledge, god cast them out. It's not just that they ate the fruit, but that they had gained the knowledge of life and death, good and evil.
They were cast out because the garden was preserved in it's perfection, sin would not be allowed into ever again. They were placed into a cursed world. Yes the got the knowledge and they along with us are suffering because of it. Disobedience is the why, not the action of eating the fruit, their hearts left God and they became selfish, the same as Lucifer, he got tossed because of his disobedience.
Quote:The implication of that is that, yes, god preferred that they not gain such knowledge. Otherwise, why make it forbidden? Why punish them for learning?
Again they were punished for their disobedience and yes God did not want them to have the knowledge of good and evil, to gain it they had to disobey, because of it sin entered the creation.
Again, it says this plainly, in black and white:
Quote:Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”
Quote:Man had gained understanding. Had his eyes opened.
The scriptures did not say they gained understanding, you posted the proof yourself. Their eyes were opened to good and evil, this is what God said in the verses you supplied.
Quote: And it angered god. The only reasonable conclusion is that god didn't want creations that dared disobey, dared gain knowledge that he and he alone (through circular reasoning) deemed unworthy for them to obtain. He wanted them to be sheltered children in perpetuity.
I agree God was angry and why not, His children had disobeyed and brought sin into creation, the greatest disaster ever. Right, God did not want them to become disobedient, He knew what would happen if they did. They and we are unworthy of that kind of knowledge, that knowledge has enabled man to do the most awful actions, against God and himself. Yet God loved them so much He gave them the right of choice.
Quote:It also begs the question as to why god would create such a manipulative animal to live in his garden. Dumb move if you want your creations to live just so, without any desire to disobey.
That would have eliminated the freedom of choice, the choice to love God or reject Him. An omniscient being logically can't be dumb. So your conclusion on it being a dumb move is negated.
Quote:And, just for yucks, there's nothing in Chapters 2 and 3 that describes Adam and Eve's free will as a loving gift from god. Interesting....
But, of course, all of this is a digression from the topic at hand - hell.
They had a choice, you've even stated they did, that had to come from God and the scriptures say God gives good gifts, it's bad they misused it. Good gifts are given with love.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.