Hello, i am a real Christian

[tackattack]

@ Kichigaineko- I would respectfully request you stop calling me sweety, honey and the like... I'd slap my mom for calling me that. Feel free to call me dave, tack, tacky, or any other variation on my actual name.

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1a-I'm not brushing off any of the deeds of generations past. I'm correcting your interpretation of Christianity. My denomination does not teach bigotry or intolerance. I am Christian so it factors hugely into my definition of Christianity. Try and see it from my perspective. Churches I've been to, even of different denominations, all abhor the Church that goes to schools and boycotts homosexuality. That's just one example. You say I'm brushing aside past occurences. I'm saying your attribting all of the publicized bad to the entirety of the whole. See my German comment above.

Here's the issue. Every religious person thinks their church does no wrong, spreads no intolerance, and it's always the other ones that are morally corrupt.

Here's a small reality check. Christian doctrine is bigoted and intolerant. Having the idea that someone will burn for eternity for believing something different than you, and having it completely justified is extremely judgmental, not to mention grossly intolerant. Having the audacity to say your book holds the answers to mankind's most pertinent questions when there are many more where that came from, is absolutely disingenuous. Making the claim that someone sacrificed himself FOR you as a sort of payment for things you haven't done is seriously corrupt.

Christianity actively convinces people (and is quite good at it) that you are unclean and need a savior - the religion allegedly preaches love but the Bible teaches the contrary, that the worst thing anyone can ever do is blaspheme or deny the one true God, a God who made you knowing your nature, but hates what you've become and loves you enough that he sent himself down as a blood sacrifice to himself to put you in some kind of binding contract when fulfilled, will culminate with an eternity of servitude and praise to the one who did all of this.

Of course, there are churches that cherry pick their beliefs. Most of them do, because you can't all be biblical literalists and expect people to go along with it without strife, but this has nothing to do with the tenets of its doctrine or the highly intolerant practices it has justified directly (not necessarily indirectly).

1b- I doubt you'll convince me with any references that the entirety is ever wholey or equally responsible for the actions of the part. I don't doubt someone somewhere in the religions have sought power, it's a natural human compulsion (and we're all human), but attribute it to personal accountability and stop blaming the whole for things obviously in contradiction with the teaching of that belief.

Here's the issue. I do attribute it to personal accountability, and the chain goes all the way back to the founders of the religion. The point I was making is that religion is mainly a means of control, not necessarily of personal enlightenment, even though it may seem that way from the inside of the circle.

Accountability doesn't just stop with the "extremists" because they interpret something differently than you.

2-Firstly, Suicide is forbidden. "O ye who believe!... [do not] kill yourselves, for truly Allah has been to you Most Merciful. If any do that in rancour and injustice, soon shall We cast him into the Fire..." (Qur'an 4:29-30).

It's not suicide if you're a martyr, which is exactly what they are. This is one of the highest honors a Muslim can have.

Qur'an (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Qur'an (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."

Qur'an (2:207) - "And there is the type of man who gives his life to earn the pleasure of Allah..."

and mass murder even for retalition is forbidden as well. This practice was directly forbidden in the Qur'an (2:178-179). Following this statement of law, the Qur'an says, "After this, whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave chastisement" (2:178).

Unless it's for the infidel.

2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

5:33 The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom.

so an obvious misinerpretation happened somewhere.

On your part perhaps.

I'm pretty sure most of the mulims I know don't interpret the Qur'an the same was as the Jihadists.

Because they also embrace secular values. Most Muslims is Western countries also don't condone Sharia Law, but it doesn't mean it's not part of the Islamic doctrine. Just because those who kill in the name of Allah are small in number, it doesn't mean they're interpreting the book incorrectly. When a book calls for the killing of the unbeliever, it's pretty clear what message it's sending. Most people don't because it conflicts their own moral values - not ones dictated by a holy book.

I agree that fanatacism and closed-minded interpretaion without a system of balance is definately a recipe for disaster every time. Do you condemn all Muslims for the acts of the fanatics?

No. I condemn the religion for its doctrine. What people do as a result of that doctrine is a harmful byproduct.

3-corruption - motives that lead to the the act of illegal or unlawful practices I guess.

Unlawful in what sense? You can be operating under God's Law and break the laws of the land, and vice versa. Therein lies my point. What side are you standing on to make the distinction of corruption?

4-Thanks for the reading.. I'l close this out and talk about that later.. this post is long enough.

No prob.

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1a- The only universally accepted doctrine of the different sects of Christianity is the Nicene Creed and I see nothing intolerant about

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We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible. We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father (the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth]; by whom all things were made; Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven; he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Ghost. And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets.
In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

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There's no condemnation or refusal or punishments other than the possible judgement day reference, which is kind of ambiguous. It seems like a simple statement of belief, not instructions on genocide for those who don't believe the same.
I agree that using the bible as your sole resource for mankind's most pertinent questions is disingenuous at worst, closed-minded and obstinant at best.cherry picking is also not a rrelious monopoly, it's human nature. I try and read within as much context as I can find and intake as many different viewpoints as possible before deciding anything, I'd like to hop that most those in my denomination do as well.

1b-Are you saying since I'm a christian that I'm partially to blame for the withhunts, and holy wars? That seems counter-intuitive to me. I can see where "historically" it could seem like a means of control and Catholicism might still reflect that today. To my knowledge there isn't that control in my denomination or church. I can, and have, walked away without any calls asking why I'm not at church or how's my walk speeched from the congregation. There was of course a little familial inquisition, but it was brief and unobtrusive.
I agree a crime is a crime regardless of your reasons (extreme or not). But primary repsonsibility vs associative responsibility, the latter has to have some limits. Otherwise you'd share some of the responsibility for ted bundy and hitler??

2-Martyrdom (as explained by my muslim friends) still must be done justly and proportionalte to the crime, not killing 100 people in a suicide run because your brother was shot by 1 infidel soldier. If your people are persecuted and the state of Islam is at war with the infidels then they would be declared at war and have the option to kill maime or exile the infidels.
I don't claim to have an excellent grasp of Muslim politics or beliefs.. I can't honestly say thought that reading those versus in the Qur'an (to include yours) that muslims condone mass murder or excessive martyrdom, which is backed up by the understanding of my muslim friends (from Sudan) who have read this post. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point I guess. If you fault the entire relgion for what a small number are doing, isn't that biasing you towards others of that religion, or are you saying you just want that religion abolished?

3-I believe in seperation of church and state therefore in regards to the legal sense of corruption I stand on the side of secular laws, not God's laws. If I break man's laws by following God's will I would expect to be punished by man's standards.