Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: May 8, 2024, 11:12 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Is There a Difference Between Trusting Scientists and Trusting Preachers?
RE: Is There a Difference Between Trusting Scientists and Trusting Preachers?
(July 14, 2016 at 4:16 am)Alex K Wrote: Another trouble is that the results of science aren't simple truths, they are often theory dependent, with shades of grey and degrees of certainty.

To give an example from a field I know (risking to sound like a broken record) - so people were using the Large Hadron Collider to look for the Higgs Boson, a particle that had been predicted by a very successful theory in which it was pretty much the last undiscovered piece. Now, in 2012 a discovery was announced because a deviation of ~5 standard deviations from the null hypothesis (no new physical effect beyond the known ones takes place) was seen.

Now, if you want to interpret this, you have to unravel a whole series of assumptions and observations.  First of all, was it a real discovery or a statistical fluke? The more measurements in different places you make, the more likely it becomes to see a 5 standard deviations fluke. This possibility was discarded because first of all, 5 sigma was still very unlikely to occur in the same place in two experiments, but also because of theoretical prior knowledge telling you that a particle is expected in this and this place with such and such properties, and the signals matched this expectation within experimental accuracy. Ok, so you have convinced yourself that it is not a fluke, and the signal looks like a new particle. But what particle? Is it *the* Higgs boson your theory predicted, and what does that even mean. So you keep measuring and the error bars shrink and the properties of the new thing are still within the predicted ones from your theory. Still, you haven't measured everything and there is still wiggle room because measurements always have error bars, and the new thing could be something closely related to the theoretically predicted Higgs Boson, but not exactly the same thing. Especially since you know that the very theory that gave you the prediction of the Higgs boson doesn't really describe the Masses of Neutrinos nor Dark Matter and therefore is necessarily incomplete, so the Higgs boson you discovered cannot possibly be *exactly* the one your theory predicted. Initially, they hadn't really measured the spin of the thing yet, and the relative certainty that it was a spin-0 particle like a Higgs boson is supposed to be, came as much from actual measurements of its spin as from the knowledge that it would be a huge coincidence for particles of spin-2 to accurately reproduce all the properties expected from the Higgs boson.

So after all those considerations, what do you tell everyone? CERN Director General Rolf Heuer on July 4, 2012 put it thusly:
"As a layman, I would say, I think we have it"

In the hedging and slight vagueness of those words lie all the considerations I outlined above, and probably more I don't even know.

As a lay person, I could ask you first what you mean by deviation. What is deviating and what is it deviating from and how do you know this? Or I can go back to your example of trusting my car mechanic and be done with it.
The god who allows children to be raped out of respect for the free will choice of the rapist, but punishes gay men for engaging in mutually consensual sex couldn't possibly be responsible for an intelligently designed universe.

I may defend your right to free speech, but i won't help you pass out flyers.

Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.
--Voltaire

Nietzsche isn't dead. How do I know he lives? He lives in my mind.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
RE: Is There a Difference Between Trusting Scientists and Trusting Preachers? - by Rhondazvous - July 14, 2016 at 1:56 pm

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Scientists detect mystery radio signal from nearby star Foxaèr 20 3677 August 13, 2017 at 10:21 pm
Last Post: Jehanne
  Differences between women and men. Little lunch 49 4826 August 11, 2016 at 10:02 pm
Last Post: Little lunch
  Liberal Christain Scientists puzzle me! TheMonster 13 3356 July 13, 2015 at 1:44 pm
Last Post: Dystopia
Brick The genetic similarity between man and Cambanzy Is it true? king krish 34 6709 December 30, 2014 at 4:31 pm
Last Post: Cyberman
  Scientists are FUN! bennyboy 0 718 June 24, 2014 at 6:47 pm
Last Post: bennyboy
  Rank the top best scientists of all time. Of all time. [so far] Autumnlicious 28 9888 October 5, 2012 at 9:04 pm
Last Post: Jackalope
  Scientists on trial Epimethean 20 3842 October 4, 2011 at 10:16 pm
Last Post: LunchBox
  Scientists circumvent heisenbergs uncertainty principle downbeatplumb 1 3175 June 7, 2011 at 9:12 am
Last Post: lilphil1989
  Shamans and Scientists Tabby 28 12636 July 10, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Last Post: Purple Rabbit
  ''Yes, Scientists believe in God''. CoxRox 44 16701 December 28, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Last Post: leo-rcc



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)