(January 17, 2017 at 7:48 am)Tonus Wrote:(January 16, 2017 at 7:16 pm)Godschild Wrote:It's not a convenient answer, it's what has been discovered through the application of the scientific method. No matter where a scientist is from or what he believes, he can reach the same conclusion as other scientists via this method. This is exactly the opposite of gods and religions, where there is no reliable method for determining if there is a god, much less who it or they are. So the theory of evolution is accepted by nearly every scientist, but there is no unified belief in god even among the most devout.
There is no proof of one species evolving into another and there are a lot of scientist who disagree about evolution and do not draw the same conclusions. There are many scientist who do not even believe in evolution. We weren't talking about method, you were the one who brought up demonstrable. I brought up an example that's not demonstrable, no different than you did. I certainly didn't bring it up to confuse our discussion.
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Tonus Wrote:That's the same for pretty much any religious person, as there are too many religions and denominations for anyone to investigate more than just a handful. Yet all of those people are as confident as you are that their beliefs are true and yours are either false or mistaken to some degree. That's the point I am making-- the people who claim to have found god have not found the same one, but they are nonetheless convinced that their choice is sound.
I understand the point you're trying to make but, you did not address what I was saying, I've seen and heard about many and none of those has a book anything like the Bible, especially one that the god of their religion tells them exactly who he/she is and those gods have changed over time. The God of the Bible is unchanging as He said.
As for denomination I'm guessing you were referring to Christianity and as far as I know all but the fringe denominations (those that most protestant denomination do not accept, Latter Day Saints and ect.) believe the same things about God and that He is unchanging. Yes there are disagreements on certain matters mostly small in how the Christian church is run.
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Tonus Wrote:How would I shield my spirit from the holy spirit? I suspect that we won't ever get down to actual details, just these vague explanations. Theists will tell us that god can be found via one means or another, but they don't offer specific steps. This happens across faiths and it is another example of a method that isn't clear or consistent.
You tell me when you did, I would think if you were seeking God you were confronted with conviction and refused to follow through on that conviction, you might deny it but I'm betting you remember. God will extend His grace to those who seek even to those He knows will refuse the conviction that come from the Holy Spirit. Everyone who seeks will have their chance, God makes sure of this so no one can deny they were given a chance.
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Tonus Wrote:I think you misunderstood my point in these examples. They knew god directly and personally and still rejected him. Someone as magnificent as god is supposed to be would leave everyone he encounters awestruck, but god leaves people wanting all the time. That does not make sense.
They had choice and chose self over God and all have regretted their choice, they've lost everything and didn't care who they have taken with them. This should have been a warning to others just how powerful and deceptive the self is. People feel wanting because they want what God knows isn't good for them, the self is deceptive and far from omniscient. Remember those who have rejected God have regretted the choice.
Quote:First of all Adam and Eve disobeyed God, what they did was not a rejection.
Tonus Wrote:They rejected god's claim to sovereignty when they took action against his wishes. They rejected his offer of eternal life by taking an action that would guarantee their death.
That's called sin, rejecting God's will in your life is sin and it's not rejection of Him. Children reject what parents know is best for their lives but that doesn't mean they reject their parents.
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Tonus Wrote:What makes you say that these individuals thought this way? There is no reason for them to have. Why would god allow them --especially his angels-- to be misguided in such a way?
Look at what's recorded in the Bible it's all there. I've even explained it in my last post. Free will, choice. If those who do not want to live in eternity with Him they only have to say no. God want and hasn't forced anyone to accept eternal life with Him. This is played out in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.
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Tonus Wrote:That would be god's fault, if he was real. And that's the thing-- god seems to be a poor character because he is made up. A real god would not really care what the beings on a speck of dust in his cosmic living room thought about him, and he certainly would not plan out eternal torment for them.
Just how do you know this, where has this information come from, I know it's not in the scriptures, I know them well enough to say this. God cares because He created us and calls us His most important creation. God gave His Son for us, I know this doesn't mean anything to you however it does to hundreds of millions, it really makes no sense to me how a small percentage of the people on this planet believes the rest are wrong. I know, I know science, yet science hasn't answered the most important things in life, why, because those are not answerable by science.
Tonus Wrote:That's what makes him so unimpressive. Gods are always created with human flaws even when they are designed as a form of wish-fulfillment. Only indoctrination and cultural pressure keep people from stepping back and realizing that it's imaginary.
My God has no flaws, you might try and give Him flaws but, that doesn't't make it so, just your flawed opinion. The Holy Spirit makes sure those who will love God receives the grace they desire. I will agree all other gods are made up, they are there so people can deceive themselves into believing God doesn't exist. The gods of self, money, science even the ones made of wood and stone will lead to eternal punishment.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.