(January 21, 2017 at 10:29 am)Tonus Wrote:(January 20, 2017 at 4:11 am)Godschild Wrote:
They're not the same to the Jews. They're not even the same to many Christian denominations (Jehovah's Witnesses, for example) that teach that they're two separate people and that the Holy Spirit is not a person at all. And there are many passages that can be used to advance those ideas. This is what I mean about the divergence between religions and even within religions.
The Israelites of the OT believed in the coming messiah.
The Jehovah's Witnesses is not many denominations. This group of people have retranslated the King James Bible to suit there own needs, the translation is called the NWT, New World Translation. This group is told by the Watchtower Society they are not to interpret the Bible for themselves, they are to avoid independent thinking and are to never question the Watchtower counseling. This denomination was started by one man who was Charles Russell, he had no theological training he was disbelieving of traditional biblical teachings. Joined in with the Adventist Church for a while left them and started the Watchtower Society that in 1931 became the Jehovah's Witnesses Church. Russell and Rutherford made bold predictions about the end times that did not come true. Russell was shown as a perjurer in a court of law because he couldn't read the Greek alphabet as he claimed he could. This church and it's leaders are a long way from being reliable. So you have the Advertise and JW's churches that see God the Father, God the Son and Holy Spirit differently than all the other denominations. Most every denomination considers both to be cults. There are no verses that can advance the ideas that either of these churches hold about the Trinity.
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Tonus Wrote:This is an example of the saying that "when you believe, then you will see." God doesn't need anything from us in order to reveal himself. He hides in spite of knowing that keeping humanity in the dark will cost many of them the chance at heaven, to say nothing of the awful things they do to one another in the meantime (and sometimes in his name). Due to his vast power, he cannot be doing it out of cowardice. If he is not imaginary then he is capricious and cruel.
First off you've made this statement on other occasions and yet haven't given any biblical proof or proof of any kind that there is any truth to this statement.
If you were to seriously study the Bible you would see that faith and belief must come first, this is God's desire. God does not hide himself, He is there for anyone who seriously is searching for Him. God states that it is His desire that no one be lost but, it is up to each person to make that choice, God want force it. If it were God's ultimate will that all would be save it would happen, however that is not what the Bible teaches, if it did there would be no reason for hell eternal.
You are right about one thing you said, "God doesn't need anything from us to reveal himself." God has said look at My creation and you can see My work and know that I Am.
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Tonus Wrote:But sin is part of a condition visited upon humanity. You don't reject god by sinning any more than you rejected your parents when you disobeyed them.
That is what I said in an earlier post and I said it because you were saying the opposite. An example of this is when you said Adam and Eve rejected God by sinning.
Tonus Wrote: To reject them would mean turning your back and walking away from them, wanting nothing more to do with them. That is how Adam and Eve (and Satan, etc) rejected god. They did not simply stumble and decide not to accept correction. They willfully defied god and turned away from him.
You're right it takes a willful act of rejection and never returning to God and this is what Satan and the fallen angels did. Adam and Eve did not do this, the evidence for this is God's seeking them out after they had sinned against Him. He knew what they had done, yet He called out to them as a parent to a child, wanting them to come out of hiding and face Him. He made them cloths to hide their nakedness, this is the first deaths that occurred in God's creation. God himself had to take the lives of the animals it took to make their clothes, the first blood split because of sin God had to do it and He also personally split the last blood for sin. Ironic, no it was the plan that had to be because of sin. You really think God would have done this for them if they were going to reject Him, no and why blood had paid for their sin, now you know why there was a requirement of blood for sin and why it's referred to as the covering. You might not see this as a story of the beauty and heart of our loving God but, I do. This story is why the whole Bible has to be true.
By the way the Bible never says Adam and Eve willfully turned away from God forever, that's something you have either been taught or made up yourself.
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Tonus Wrote:Surely Judas knew that betraying Jesus meant his death, didn't he? If he knew for certain that Jesus was God and that he offered salvation from suffering and death, he understood that he was damning himself by his action.
Do you really believe Judas would have turned on Jesus if he knew these things, why for thirty pieces of silver, sale his soul, sale eternal life no man in his right mind would trade all that for a mere thirty pieces of silver. This is what I believe about Judas from discussions with other Christians. Judas either decided that Jesus wasn't who He was claiming to be even though he saw the miracles and, believed he would be better off with what he could get, the Bible tells us that Judas was keeping the money they had and stole from that moneies. This is what I personally believe, Judas was like most all the Jewish people, he believed the coming messiah was going to destroy Israel's enemies and set them free forever but, he saw in Jesus a man of peace and compassion someone not capable of or wanting to destroy anyone. So Judas turned Him in to try and force Jesus to do what the Jews believed was His purpose and he would get thirty pieces of silver to boot. When Jesus was forgiving of what Judas had done he saw the true messiah and couldn't live with what he had done. So Judas saw he in his betrayal of Jesus that he had rejected the true God and there was no hope for him. This for me is one of the saddest moments in the scriptures.
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Tonus Wrote:I would need to believe that God existed in order to reject him. I find the claims and arguments for his existence unconvincing once I decided to challenge my presuppositions. For God to be real I would need to acknowledge more than just the ways he shows love. I would need to acknowledge that he allows suffering, that he sometimes inflicted it himself, and that he threatens to inflict it for an eternity to a great many people. I understand that the response will be to shift the blame, but that doesn't make the argument more compelling in light of the qualities that God possesses. I'd like for there to be a God --and for that God to be loving and kind and caring-- because I think that'd be amazing and wonderful. But as the song goes, we can't always get what we want.
How can you say those things without coming to know God. When one comes to believe, God will reveal the most wonderful being, himself! He will give you the understanding you need, He will show you the truth of who He really is, you want have to rely on your own false perceptions or what others tell you, be they Christian or otherwise. I could explain to some degree why God allows many things that seem distasteful to us but, I'm sure you've heard many of them and besides who better to help you understand than God himself, the omniscient One.
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Tonus Wrote:I can only judge God by the standards that we use to judge behavior. If we put him above such considerations then he becomes unpredictable because his actions lack motive and context in the way that ours do. If I decide to kick a child in the head without cause or warning, it's easy to judge that I've done something bad. If God decided to take the same action, he has done something good because he is god and any analysis is thrown out. Why would you assume that an eternity with such a being would not have moments of terror? You assume he will only do 'good' things, but everything he does is good. You will say that arbitrarily harming others is against his nature, but his nature is such that arbitrarily harming others is good. This concept of God --that his actions can only be good because he transcends human morals-- should scare those who believe in him.
God is above our judgment, as I have quoted from the Bible before, what right has the clay to tell the potter what it should be. What right has the vessel to say to the potter why would you treat me so. The answer is an obvious one, none.
I do not assume that heaven will be anything other than the most awesome and peaceful place to live, I k own it will be because it is promised and God has been truthful with me always. I do not have to doubt, God has never given me reason to doubt.
You say it would be good to know a loving God but, how can you if you are going to always stand in judgment of Him. You can't find something you are judging, it takes all your time to criticize Him for who He isn't and refuse to allow Him to show you who He is.
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Tonus Wrote:No problem, GC. As always, my interest is in what others believe and why they believe it. I am not concerned with changing your mind, you seem like a good and decent person and that strikes me as the most important qualities to have. I tend to check the forums every other day now because I'm busy, so there's no need to rush to respond. Take care!
I thank you for your opinion of me and I see you as a person concerned about good, respect and decency. I like the good conversation we can have because of your respect, it's people like you that make me feel like part of the community,thanks. It,s been hard on my eyes today I've tried to respond to all the post I can, I turned down the brightness of the screen to see if that will help. Hopefully so.
GC
