How to discuss religion with believers?

[Drich]

You state it all of this as if it was unquestionable truth. They are assumptions not backed up by any evidence (please provide it if you possess it). What do you know about god's concern?

more or less asked and answered. Evidence comes in the way of eye witness testimony. Scientific evidence does not apply as science is not opposed to God but the method in which God naturally operates. The idea that science and God are opposed to each other and scientific evidence excludes God is at best medieval thinking. Tht said I know of God what he has shared with us all through scripture.

How are you so sure that Christ was his son and not a random dude?

Me personally? stood before Him and was judged and sent to hell. Then after my visit obtained a measure of the holy Spirit who empowered Christ Himself while he was on the earth.

And moving on to more common and banal questions: why should god make all this process so tedious and vague and difficult?

God literally has two rules to the whole of Christianity. the rest is man made religion. God did not hide himself we have burried God behind our need to be right and our personal pride.

What's the point?

to function for which the purpose of your creation. To serve and find or be given true contentment and full happiness. To be loved and to love God.

What is he trying to achieve with this?

to fill eternity future with being who were not created to be there but to fill eternity future with beings who elected to be there.

He created humans, but they didn't function as he expected and so he threw them out and made up some confused instructables about how to make them "fix" themselves up and go back to his place. Why all of this?

they function exactly as expected. otherwise why else make the Garden so small and the rest of the world so big? why create Adam on day 4 and the rest of man who evolved outside the garden on day 6? So when the fall happened 6000 years ago there was a genetically compatible breeding stock for Adam's children to pass their souls onto. Christ dying on the cross simply draws a line for God in the sand. it eliminates the law in so far as to make eveyone equal for a moment in time on this one issue: will you respect God enough to honor what Christ did to atone for all sin. if yes then no matter your sin your past or your culture you can enter eternity with God. if no then you are separated from those who do honor God. What better way to test those who would other wise be swayed by the trappings of the "THINGS" God would offer.. Place us in a matrix or sorts with no intrinsic knowledge of God, Heaven Hell eternity reward or punishment and then be made to simply choose based on your hearts own desire to know or worship God.. The wheat and weeds get separated easily when they do it themselves.

And now I'll ask you: "what fool would invest in an eternety that is not guaranteed?".

again the only faith needed Jesus estimates is as small as a mustard seed meaning all you need is the smallest amount to honestly seek out the truth and follow God where he leads. if you can do this one thing He/God promises to literally move mountains of doubt out of your way. This Christ promises to all of us not just me. What other guarantee do you need? what about the guarantee of mini ice age of the 70s and 80s? or in the late 90's global warming or now global climate change, or the guarantee of a hole in the ozone that has been sealed up before our bans on cfc was in full effect? or what about the guarantee of the 1980 that if you ate from the nutritional pyramid you'd live a long and healthy life? (Now the pyramid is the exact opposite) To believe in any of this takes a measure of faith. why because there in lies an unknown or at the very least a unaccountable variable that can indeed falsify every single claim. So then if all things being equal what more faith is required to earnestly seek out the truth in God verse the truth in say the mini ice age? or a hole in the ozone or whatever new the sky is falling 'science' that a tax or a change in product consumption will save is all?

If there was evidence that an afterlife exists, then I would change my mind. But to the best of my knowledge, there isn't and so far none of you has shown it.

I am not God. I did not promise you anything. I am simply one who has follow the directions of the bible and received what has been promised me.

Ok, you don't see it as a reward in this physical life but more as a condition for later on. But how do you know that you are serving this god?

because I am doing what was asked/tasked in the bible and what I was told to do by the messenger God sent.

Again (in practice), did he show up again in some form and told you that you are doing a good job?

the "good job" comes in the way the parable of the talents outlines.. in that your "talents" you responsibilities double You are given more talents. The things you see as reward and the thing I see as more work are the same. It is also very apparent when I am walking the path I also know I can literally petition God for anything and get it. however as I get older I also understand the cost. that nothing happens in a vacuum. If I pray for more more money then it comes in the way of bigger deals tighter deadlines pushing the equipment pushing employees fraid nerves and on down the line the dominoes fall, till we need to expand, which means even more money and more everything else. So I ask for what we need to be where he wants us to be and not exceed the pace we need to be at. I seek now what God wants for me because I know in the end it will always work out better for me than if I were to choose my own path.

How do you know what he sees fit?

because whether you like it or not it is your lot in life.

Does he send you monthly assignments that you carry out?

monthy daily weekly and hourly. If a task is set before me that I can do or give to an employee it is a task given to e by God to resolve. which is why I spend so much personal time here and working with people like you as i can not hand this off to others while other aspects of my work I can.

How does this happen in reality? 

yesterday I spent 2/3 of my day writing you and a few others and the first third I took calls and picked up a car at the auction, because my two porters were at another location picking up a commercial van. I took the calls directed them to the people that could help got the car from across town which freed up my afternoon and spent the rest of the time here. (till 6pm)

And you are partially correct about what I see, but I'll rectify it a bit: I see what I see, I know what I know. And now back at you: how do you see "beyond"? How do you know there is a next life? Is this perhaps already your 2nd or 3rd life and so you are already experienced with this process?

I see nothing God has not given me to view. I am not special. I am simply a tool God has in a very big box of tools to use. i simply make myself available and do whatever I can that is set before me.

I do understand the concept you are trying to convey, as it's similar to what you may feel towards a loved one. For example, when you are helping your wife out or teaching your kids, you don't care about the energy and investment you are putting in, you are happy knowing that you are helping them and making them happy. Correct me if I misunderstood. However, a wife or a kid are physical entities that you perceive in this reality, they are there, they are hard evidence. But how can you love and be happy serving someone whose existence is not even proven (please provide evidence if you have it)?

but again... you do not have evidence because you demanded it on your terms. seek it on God's terms and you will literally find God. He will be as real as your wife or child. Even then if I had no idea of if God was real or not, look at my lot now. look at my life as I have describes now, verse what someone with a 4th grade literacy rate is slated to accomplish. If my only interaction with God is living a good life I would follow him through that.. but the thing is we are promised so much more personal involvement if we simply do things his way. the more we do things his way the wider our eyes open the more we are able to see God doing things and working the more we are able to hear.

Who spoke about morality? Please don't bring in other topics that were never mentionend or alluded to or meant to enter the scene. If you read my very first post, you'd know by now that I'm a nihilist. To my eyes there is no inherent morality. Morality is something man-made and subjective, so leave it out of the scene. Here I am talking about kids who are harmed physically and forced to kill each other (reads: hurting and suffering physical pain). War may not be "immoral" for  god, but it still brings pain and sufference, it impairs life, it makes it more difficult and annoying to live and understand, it leaves lingering traumas. How is any of this a blessing, considering that this perceived reality is all we have? It just sounds like harming each other for the sake of something whose existence is not even a thing.

when you judge suffering and pain a 'bad thing' or cast it in a negative light your precious nihilism goes out the window as you are taking a moral stand to question a person philosophy or deity that would allow suffering of any kind. True nihilism would say who are you to judge what is suffering what makes your standards of suffering superior to another person philosophy or in this case deity

That said suffering while may seem limitless and often time pointless is often the catalyst for humanity's growth as an evolved species both physically mentally and socially. For instance rape slavery war, few would argue these are the heart of tyranny and suffering. how ever in these three things nothing more has spurred man to grow out of our caves out of our incestious clans pushed both social ecconomic and technological aspects of man these three things have built nations and see others to ruin, but at the end ultimately has shaped the global landscape through pushing people so far out of the lives and comfort they would choose for themselves but in the end as a species have developed because of this suffering. Without suffering we would still be single cell ooze in some primordial pool at the bottom of the ocean.

What ore the suffering God would have us endure always has a limit has his hand ready to catch us when we fall. God's suffering whether it be with a child with cancer or the loose of a wife or loved one may seem pointless at the time but it fosters growth not in the one suffering always but the ones who are made to support the one in pain. I am not a fan of suffering and pain but I understand it now. I understand suffering is the foundation of wisdom temperance and peace with suffering we would have none of these things.

That sounds convenient for him and unfair for others:

here's the thing God's 'fortune' is not based on what I produce. what I am given is test and semi reward of my ability. God does not need me, but I him and this is how he starts.

1) First of all, what's the point of all of this (I asked this before, but well)

to give you an opportunity experience what it is to serve.

2) Assuming the first point is somewhat addressed, under these conditions, it would ironically be more convenient to have nothing, so that he doesn't expect much while it is inconvenient to have a lot because otherwise he'll expect a lot.

yes it would. as nothing ventured is nothing lost, but also nothing gained. If you want proof, take his money invest it and see what he does to double your effort. this is an opportunity to invest in God without spending a dime, just enough effort to see if there will be any return.

Why couldn't he give everyone the same amount?

He gives each according to his ablity which is the heart of fairness.

That would have been fair...

if you were 3 and God was handing out candy.. Seriouly think about this for a minute what is better to know what a person's limits are and give to him everything he can handel and not anthing ore as to tempt or overwhelm him?

Let's say you had a brother who was a crack head in recovery and both of you come to me and want to start a business, both of you are legit have plans but both ask for the same money which would leave about a 100,000 cash flow surplus just sitting in the bank after everything was bought and paid for. Now you be a responsible person can have 100,000 sitting in the bank while maybe the same 100k for your brother is more temptation than he could bear.. he dips in on a long weekend and inside a month everything is gone and he back on the drugs.

IF I knew this to be what was going to happen should i then have given your brother the same money I gave you? IF I were God and absolutely knew wouldn't that be setting your brother up to fail? What then If I gave him a chance by giving him a minimal amount that he could get started with a basic business and then help him one on one from there? which would be better?

Equality here has nothing to do with quantity as we are all not the same. In the parable of the talents God gives us each according to our own abilities. which is far greater gift than holding us to one standard..

or maybe he doesn't like boring settings? Perhaps it's more entertaining to spice things up by creating unbalance? 

Or maybe this is a mercy. Otherwise what if we did not live a full life but God's bar was set so high that we had to be working diligently 95% of the time in a 75 year life span? People who die young would never have a chance. so for those who have that lot are given less to be responsible for.

3) I may sound skeptical about christ's judgement because I'm used to my country's justice which is perverse. Getting involved with the law here only means losing. Even if you are right, you just end up losing money and energy in the process while obtaining nothing, so most of the time it's just wiser to not get involved at all. God created man to his image and likeness, right? What tells me he's any different? Actually, if we are his spitting image, why is he intangible, invisible etc? We aren't like that, but he is, but we are like him, yet we are not. Which is it?

We are like him but lack the authority to do what we want. enter Christ and the law is removed thereby removing our need to follow the law as a means to righteousness. making our adherence or our disobedience from the law a matter of an expression of love or defiance.

The law is only there to judge those who do not accept Christ. those who do are now judged by a different standard and that is love/Agape'

17) my life now is not the reward my life now is the master giving me 10 talents to invest rather than the one i started out with was shown to be faithful and doubble and again and again..

This is always in the scope that there is an afterlife, is this correct?
No this is happening to me now. my work here posts rewards there.

18) What makes you think Christians will be the only Group represented in Heaven? I can think of several deists who have in the bible been identified by Jesus/God as being in heaven several million more Jews Not as many people who claim to be christian will be there than they think they will be.. and many many more with no religious affiliation at all.. all of which can be found in scripture... So what of those born before Christ? Do you not understand the nature of the sacrifice? The sacrifice completes the law meaning it sets up not only the permanence of the do's and don't's of the law but it also full fills and completes all the redemption and atonement requirements. means all sacrifices for redemption and atonement have been met. meaning on the day of our judgement our "righteousness" or ability or quality of worthiness to enter heaven is not based on our deeds but where or not Christ judges us 'worthy' based on who we were and what he gave us to work with.

This point is a bit confusing. So everyone before his sacrifice (which supposedly nullified all men's sins up to that point in time) were discounted of judgement, while all who came after are not justified anymore? Also, your last two sentences are contradictory: first you say that our worthiness is not based on our deeds, then you say that it's based on who we are... but don't our deeds and actions define who we are? 

I'm saying the same sacrifice that works for everyone after he died works in reverse for everyone before he died.. All this means is one does not need to be a member of the christian religious movement. that Christ decides at judgement who is and who is not christian. Our claims to spirituality mean nothing our labels mean nothing it is the judgement of Christ upon your judgement day that makes you 'saved' not the work you do or what you call yourself.

19) actually if you read genesis with out the restrictions put upon it by the church Man with a soul exited the garden about 6000 years ago. before that man with a soul/adam lived in een with God from the beginning of creation of earth 15 mil years ago/or whatever trivial number you wish to plug in. As the end of the 7th day is not preceeded by the fall of man.. meaning God did not created the world in 7 days and on the 8th day adam and eve were cast out hence the YEC view. No the bible makes no distinction between the end of creation and the fall of man which we know to be 6000 years or so ago via the geneologies provided.

Meaning man/homo sapeian outside the garden had no soul loose it was not till (chapter 2 man whom God breathed a living soul) entered the post garden world and his children had children with homosapeins did men have souls.. which bottle neck again at the ark thus post ark all men have souls.

So no. no heaven for monkey man/man evolved from whatever common ancestor explanation you want to use. Yes to the descendants of adam man made in the garden between day 3 and 4 per genesis 2:5

Thanks for clarifying this point. It always puzzled me but noone before was able to answer me. Even if I'm still skeptical about this book or its presumed purpose, at least I can understand better some points now. Thanks.

 

20) not to make light of you efforts, but as you can see a littttle more thought went into my answers then the feel good retard dismissal you cobbled together in the beginning of your post. Again sport people most of us anyway (includes you) are not stupid. the fact that people are fleeing from the church today speaks volumes to this.. why? because the church does not know who the Holy Spirit is today. If you earnestly met God or even as I did an angel and had a sit down, did not utter a word and had a complete conversation detailing your future and past, could you not then see the "fuel" that Christianity has been running on? could you consider that not all people are stupid emotional moron looking to self full fill their broken needs? What if I told you everything happened to me is also offered to each and every single one of you?!? You just have to follow God his way. While salvation can be found any number of ways, you can only approach God for a personal relationship one way, and that is on hs terms.

One more time people are not stupid people know when a religion is being fueled supported and when it is not. it is with the same forethought and critical eye that I wrote the first 1/2 of my original post here was used to write the second. yes i did come to a different conclusion, but to dismiss me because of that is being guilt of the same confirmation bias you accuse mindless emotion seeking religious zombies of.. if that is the case (that you are guilty of the same brain numbing non-thinking move as a religious zombie) what would that make you?

This brings again the practical issues. You talk about "earnestly meeting God or an angel". How does that happen in practice?

for me it was pushing past my comfort zone and helping someone in deep need.

How do I know or confirm it's him and not a random encounter?

content of the message. angels always bring messages that is their primary task with our involvement.

How can I have a conversation with this mister?

A/S/K Ask Seek and knock for the Holy Spirit on His terms and not your own.

I've already tried before, even went for other ways, but it just doesn't manifest.

Again you tried to make your god appear which you conclusively proved does not exist. Next step read the gospels at least and see what Jesus says you must do.

You say you need to approach him on his terms, but again, these terms are just like badly written and vague instructables.

I can only point you in a general direction. let's say I am a 1 talent guy in that God gave me one bag of gold, and doing so I must serve with this one bag of gold as my limiting guidline. Now let's say you being educated smart guy you have been given 5 bags.. now if I tell you how or what to do based off my understand with God through my one talent.. your experience would be non existant or lacking. Or if the oppsite where true and I told you of all the thing God expects from these 5 talents I have you might run away screaming.. When in fact the only requirement is you give God your best effort. You must seek him on your own and follow where he leads. Again start with the NT gospels mat mark luke and john then oneplace.com is a radio preacher archive I like harvest bible chapel with james mcdowell. there are many other bible based teachers but he reads and exposues line by line most of the time not given to scrap book theology. meaning Follow the teachings of people who read blocks of text whole chapters or even books at a time and stay away from people who pull 1/2 a verse here and plug it into 1/2 a verse from another book or chapter then give a lesson several verse scraps glued together. You will eventually feel a need a need for more question to be answered or a need to be around people a need to do something or stop something else. follow those needs/urges so long as you can biblically justify them with what you know and be open to change as your knowledge of the Bible and God will change.

Also, if his terms are anything like Godscreated said (that logic in reverse where evidence comes after believing), then there is just no way someone like me can engage god. It would just mean to turn off my brain.

Faith of the mustard seed is all that God requires according to Jesus Christ Himself. again we expend more faith in science than we are expected to expand with God. If you just honestly follow where God leads, he will be there.

And once again, I did not dismiss you, otherwise I wouldn't have asked more questions and replied to this waterfall of text. I am genuinely trying to understand better, and when something smells I say it, so that you can pick up on what exactly I don't understand and perhaps clarify.

Hope you'll take the time to read and reply to this as well.