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Being cannot come from Non-being
#20
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being
(November 20, 2019 at 12:58 pm)Alex K Wrote: OP
How can you talk about causation and temporal processes in general once you leave the spacetime continuum? That sounds pretty nonsensical on the face of it.

[b]Timeless causation[/b]

W.L.Craig writes:

God must be causally, but not temporally, prior to the Big Bang. With the creation of the universe, time began, and God entered into time at the moment of creation in virtue of His real relations with the created order. It follows that God must, therefore, be timelesswithout the universe and temporal with the universe.


The cause of the Big Bang operated at to, that is, simultaneously (or coincidentally{1}) with the Big Bang. Philosophical discussions of causal directionality routinely treat simultaneous causation, the question being how to distinguish A as the cause and B as the effect when these occur together at the same time [Dummett and Flew (1954); Mackie (1966); Suchting (1968-69); Brier (1974), pp. 91-98; Brand (1979)].{2} Even on a mundane level, we regularly experience simultaneous causation; 


There must have been a point or transition from a timeless dimension, to a dimension in time. This transition could eventually have happened when God created the physical universe. But if it were so, he would have had to create the reality of heaven, and the heavenly creatures at the same time - since, even in a higher, different, or another dimension, as soon as there is action, movement, motion, there is time, space and matter ( even if in a different higher form with different properties ) 

We know that God created the heavens and the angels before He created the physical universe. The book of Job describes the angels worshipping God as He was creating the world: 

Job 38:4-7
"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone - while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?".

And in Romans 8.29 we read:
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

Ephesians 1.4:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

To me, it seems reasonable to think of following"timeline":

- God existed in a timeless dimension, alone and changeless
- God created heaven, and the heavenly creatures, and moved from a timeless dimension, into time
- God created the physical universe
- This universe will be destroyed and replaced by a new one, which will be eternal

Physical properties have to exist in order for time to exist then time goes back before the Big bang, because, in order for there to be a big bang, there has to be both gravity and material, both of which have physical properties and both of which are manipulated by energy. Therefore, the notion that the creator spoke, or manipulated with energy, everything into existence. Thus, time literally began with the word(manipulation of energy) of God.
That being said, everything is made of energy which existed independently before time and, which under its own power, became an intelligent life form which can manipulate and organize its own energy and create physical material.
In the beginning was the word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
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Messages In This Thread
Being cannot come from Non-being - by Otangelo - November 20, 2019 at 12:01 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Fake Messiah - November 20, 2019 at 12:07 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Otangelo - November 20, 2019 at 12:24 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Otangelo - November 20, 2019 at 12:25 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Brian37 - November 21, 2019 at 9:27 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Grand Nudger - November 20, 2019 at 12:10 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Deesse23 - November 20, 2019 at 12:16 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Gawdzilla Sama - November 20, 2019 at 12:19 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Otangelo - November 20, 2019 at 12:25 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Valkyrie - November 20, 2019 at 12:27 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Huggy Bear - January 1, 2020 at 5:01 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Paleophyte - January 1, 2020 at 5:35 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Huggy Bear - January 1, 2020 at 5:48 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by brewer - January 1, 2020 at 6:43 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Paleophyte - January 1, 2020 at 8:13 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Peebo-Thuhlu - January 1, 2020 at 5:59 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by LadyForCamus - January 1, 2020 at 7:14 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Nay_Sayer - January 1, 2020 at 7:19 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by LadyForCamus - January 1, 2020 at 7:23 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Huggy Bear - January 1, 2020 at 10:29 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Succubus - January 1, 2020 at 7:20 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Grand Nudger - November 20, 2019 at 12:32 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Otangelo - November 20, 2019 at 12:40 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by no one - November 20, 2019 at 12:47 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Grand Nudger - November 20, 2019 at 12:47 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Valkyrie - November 20, 2019 at 12:49 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Alex K - November 20, 2019 at 12:58 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Otangelo - November 20, 2019 at 1:51 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Alex K - November 21, 2019 at 8:41 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Sal - November 20, 2019 at 1:21 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by EgoDeath - November 20, 2019 at 1:21 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Peebo-Thuhlu - November 20, 2019 at 1:34 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Gawdzilla Sama - November 20, 2019 at 1:47 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Otangelo - November 20, 2019 at 1:51 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Sal - November 20, 2019 at 1:56 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Grand Nudger - November 20, 2019 at 2:00 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Otangelo - November 20, 2019 at 2:07 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Valkyrie - November 20, 2019 at 2:11 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Fake Messiah - November 20, 2019 at 2:13 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Grand Nudger - November 20, 2019 at 2:16 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Succubus - November 20, 2019 at 2:19 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Valkyrie - November 20, 2019 at 2:31 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Grand Nudger - November 20, 2019 at 2:20 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Valkyrie - November 20, 2019 at 2:23 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 20, 2019 at 2:28 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Gawdzilla Sama - November 20, 2019 at 2:34 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Otangelo - November 20, 2019 at 2:50 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Succubus - November 20, 2019 at 3:00 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Fake Messiah - November 20, 2019 at 3:01 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by downbeatplumb - November 20, 2019 at 3:04 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Fake Messiah - November 20, 2019 at 3:10 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Valkyrie - November 20, 2019 at 2:52 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Otangelo - November 20, 2019 at 3:00 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Valkyrie - November 20, 2019 at 3:02 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by downbeatplumb - November 20, 2019 at 3:00 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Grand Nudger - November 20, 2019 at 3:03 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Alex K - November 20, 2019 at 3:04 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by brewer - November 20, 2019 at 3:26 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by LastPoet - November 20, 2019 at 3:43 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Peebo-Thuhlu - November 20, 2019 at 4:07 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by zebo-the-fat - November 20, 2019 at 4:54 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Abaddon_ire - November 20, 2019 at 5:20 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by LastPoet - November 20, 2019 at 5:52 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Abaddon_ire - November 20, 2019 at 6:33 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Valkyrie - November 20, 2019 at 6:54 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Chad32 - November 20, 2019 at 6:46 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by chimp3 - November 20, 2019 at 8:10 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Grand Nudger - November 20, 2019 at 8:13 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by mordant - November 20, 2019 at 11:32 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Nay_Sayer - November 20, 2019 at 11:53 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Otangelo - November 21, 2019 at 8:29 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 21, 2019 at 9:08 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Nay_Sayer - November 21, 2019 at 12:49 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by downbeatplumb - November 21, 2019 at 3:21 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Otangelo - December 14, 2019 at 7:02 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Mr.wizard - December 14, 2019 at 11:13 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by downbeatplumb - November 21, 2019 at 3:21 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Gawdzilla Sama - November 21, 2019 at 8:34 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Gawdzilla Sama - November 21, 2019 at 9:03 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Gawdzilla Sama - November 21, 2019 at 9:19 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 21, 2019 at 9:58 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Mister Agenda - November 21, 2019 at 11:04 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Alex K - November 21, 2019 at 11:16 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Gawdzilla Sama - November 21, 2019 at 11:49 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Alex K - November 21, 2019 at 12:38 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Gawdzilla Sama - November 21, 2019 at 12:40 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Alex K - November 21, 2019 at 12:48 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Gawdzilla Sama - November 21, 2019 at 3:14 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Gawdzilla Sama - November 21, 2019 at 1:21 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Grand Nudger - November 21, 2019 at 1:45 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by GUBU - November 21, 2019 at 5:54 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Abaddon_ire - November 23, 2019 at 12:18 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by LastPoet - November 23, 2019 at 12:35 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Alex K - November 23, 2019 at 1:31 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by LastPoet - November 23, 2019 at 1:39 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Gawdzilla Sama - November 21, 2019 at 6:39 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by SteelCurtain - November 22, 2019 at 7:58 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Otangelo - December 14, 2019 at 6:12 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - December 14, 2019 at 6:24 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Mr.wizard - December 14, 2019 at 9:21 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Otangelo - December 14, 2019 at 9:57 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Otangelo - December 15, 2019 at 7:05 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Abaddon_ire - December 15, 2019 at 10:02 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Mr.wizard - December 15, 2019 at 1:39 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Paleophyte - December 15, 2019 at 8:24 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Otangelo - December 24, 2019 at 8:31 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Paleophyte - December 24, 2019 at 9:08 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Abaddon_ire - December 24, 2019 at 10:09 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Architect Of Fate - December 24, 2019 at 10:15 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Paleophyte - December 24, 2019 at 10:44 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Deesse23 - December 25, 2019 at 3:59 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Belacqua - December 25, 2019 at 4:42 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by GUBU - December 25, 2019 at 6:06 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by downbeatplumb - December 26, 2019 at 6:52 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Gawdzilla Sama - December 26, 2019 at 7:16 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Gawdzilla Sama - December 14, 2019 at 7:51 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Architect Of Fate - December 14, 2019 at 10:06 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Grand Nudger - December 15, 2019 at 7:15 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Grand Nudger - December 15, 2019 at 7:24 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - December 15, 2019 at 7:43 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Peebo-Thuhlu - December 15, 2019 at 5:23 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by no one - December 24, 2019 at 10:06 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by LastPoet - December 25, 2019 at 6:40 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Deesse23 - December 25, 2019 at 2:14 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Succubus - December 26, 2019 at 11:48 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Gawdzilla Sama - December 26, 2019 at 12:31 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Gawdzilla Sama - January 1, 2020 at 5:12 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Gawdzilla Sama - January 1, 2020 at 8:38 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Huggy Bear - January 3, 2020 at 1:13 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Paleophyte - January 1, 2020 at 10:02 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Grand Nudger - January 1, 2020 at 10:25 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Gawdzilla Sama - January 2, 2020 at 3:58 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Deesse23 - January 2, 2020 at 2:50 am
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Peebo-Thuhlu - January 2, 2020 at 3:22 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Huggy Bear - January 3, 2020 at 2:05 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by LastPoet - January 2, 2020 at 1:07 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Grand Nudger - January 3, 2020 at 2:10 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Huggy Bear - January 3, 2020 at 2:23 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Grand Nudger - January 3, 2020 at 2:29 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by LastPoet - January 4, 2020 at 10:52 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by Haipule - January 4, 2020 at 11:22 pm
RE: Being cannot come from Non-being - by The Grand Nudger - January 7, 2020 at 7:08 am

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