Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 28, 2024, 6:09 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Political Correctness Gone Mad?
#31
RE: Political Correctness Gone Mad?
(April 27, 2009 at 1:45 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote:
(April 26, 2009 at 4:32 pm)bozo Wrote: SHRUGS....I don't think I can help you any more.

Implicitly meaning you're right and I'm wrong? More like fire and forget I'd say ... fire off random abuse (and it was implied) and forget to make an actual point. Well I'll just assume you're not capable of making one until you actually do.

Kyu

SIGH...it was you that fired off the first " shrug ", mine was more ironic.
The " actual point " was about Love Thy Neighbour, which you think failed to make its point. Now I'll agree with you insofaras it wasn't an hilariously funny programme, in fact it was emarrassing at times, but in the context of undermining racism it very much hit the mark. If you remember, it featured a very unusual, possibly first-ever sitcom where an articulate and attractive black couple were contrasted with a slobbish white couple who thought they were superior merely by virtue of their colour. ( more so the male than the woman, to be fair ). The male character was all that was bad about British working-class racism of the times.
Do I make my point clearly enough for you?
(April 26, 2009 at 7:24 pm)Tiberius Wrote:
(April 26, 2009 at 6:32 pm)bozo Wrote: Oh dear, you just don't get it, do you? Or do you want to? The dolls have been taken from the shelves for reasons I gave to Padraic earlier today. You seek to deny their history. Well so be it.
I'm unfamiliar with The Street-Porter story, so I can't comment from knowledge. If the real issue was calling somebody a bitch then I don't see it as racist, but is the lady in question racist? I don't know and neither can you know.
And as for your criticism of anti-racists, well frankly I think its bollocks.
My challenge to you to test your theory amongst the black populace stays.
And to you and your black friends, do you think we now live in a non-racist, pro-equalist Britain?
I don't deny their history, I simply think it is irrelevant today given that attitudes have changed.

I agree, we cannot know whether Street Porter is racist or not, however this wasn't the issue. The issue was whether her outburst at a black lady was a racist attack. It doesn't matter if Street Porter is secretly racist or not, she should be able to call a neighbour a "bitch" if she wishes. Even if she had no real reason to call her a bitch, I stand by it. People insult other people all the time for no reason, and matters shouldn't change just because a black lady is involved.

You think my criticism of anti-racists is bollocks but you don't say why. Are we having a discussion or not?

Which "theory" are you talking about? If you want me to go and tell black people they are "golliwogs" or other racist slurs then I am not going to, and I've given my reasons why.

As for my friends, I think they would all agree that in the area in which they live, racism isn't an issue at all. I've never heard of any racist attacks in Egham, or even in my home town. I would say that they all think where they live is a very equal place.

History is never irrelevant, it just suits some arguments to claim it is.
I thought I agreed that calling someone a name like " bitch " is not of itself racist.
You label anti-racists as racist and wonder why I say bollocks?
The theory is whether a golliwog is the benign toy you seem to claim it is. I don't expect you to act on my challenge but I thought you were intelligent enough to see the problem. You probably do, but for whatever reason you avoid it.
Do you and your friends have a wider perspective than Egham for judging if racism still exists in Britain or not?
HuhA man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
Reply
#32
RE: Political Correctness Gone Mad?
(April 27, 2009 at 2:38 pm)bozo Wrote: SIGH...it was you that fired off the first " shrug ", mine was more ironic.
The " actual point " was about Love Thy Neighbour, which you think failed to make its point. Now I'll agree with you insofaras it wasn't an hilariously funny programme, in fact it was emarrassing at times, but in the context of undermining racism it very much hit the mark. If you remember, it featured a very unusual, possibly first-ever sitcom where an articulate and attractive black couple were contrasted with a slobbish white couple who thought they were superior merely by virtue of their colour. ( more so the male than the woman, to be fair ). The male character was all that was bad about British working-class racism of the times.
Do I make my point clearly enough for you?

Ironic my arse! If you'd explained it like that in the first place instead of being an d*** then maybe I'd have listened.

Kyu
Angry Atheism
Where those who are hacked off with the stupidity of irrational belief can vent their feelings!
Come over to the dark side, we have cookies!

Kyuuketsuki, AngryAtheism Owner & Administrator
Reply
#33
RE: Political Correctness Gone Mad?
(April 27, 2009 at 2:38 pm)bozo Wrote: History is never irrelevant, it just suits some arguments to claim it is.
No, it just suits some counter-arguments to claim that history is always relevant, and that we must never make jokes about our past thinking, that we must never make black dolls with weird heads because they might be "misinterpreted". The majority of us have got over this, it is a shame you haven't. I guess a good parallel would be the gay movement, who have received equality (at least socially) in this country, and yet jokes are still made about them. There are so many BBC shows that lampoon homosexuals, and yet nobody claims "intolerance" because people understand that these things are jokes, they are funny.
Quote:I thought I agreed that calling someone a name like " bitch " is not of itself racist.
Yes but you also asked if she was racist, and said that neither of us could know. I was simply saying this isn't the point. Gordon Brown could be secretly racist, but as long as he doesn't say anything racist there is no reason to argue that he is.
Quote:You label anti-racists as racist and wonder why I say bollocks?
Yes, and you still haven't given me any kind of explanation of your view. I say the anti-racists have turned racism on its head, effectively reversing it. When a white person insults a white person, it is fine. When a white person insults a black person, it is racism. It doesn't matter what they say, if you insult a black person you are being intolerant. I also oppose allowing rappers to get away with the word "nigger" when for a white person to say that would cause offense everywhere. What do you call it when some people have a certain ability and others are prohibited because of the colour of their skin? Oh yes, that's right: racism.
Quote:The theory is whether a golliwog is the benign toy you seem to claim it is. I don't expect you to act on my challenge but I thought you were intelligent enough to see the problem. You probably do, but for whatever reason you avoid it.
I see it as a benign toy, so do my peers. I'm not going to test your "theory" because it has nothing to do with the point, and you made it as a strawman of my argument. You reckon that I think the golliwog is a depiction of a black person, and so I should be able to call black people "golliwogs". This isn't what I claimed at all. I say the golliwog doll, to me, is a funny looking doll. It shouldn't be associated with black people because it is obviously not a very flattering depiction of them. If we can accept that the doll is a doll that isn't supposed to represent black people, then I see no reason why people can't own them.
Quote:Do you and your friends have a wider perspective than Egham for judging if racism still exists in Britain or not?
Obviously I cannot speak for my friends on this matter, but I'd say that the majority of England isn't racist. The BNP is a scary party that might attract such people, but it is quite small and the fact that it doesn't get elected is a sign to me that it is more of a fringe party that will eventually disappear.
Reply
#34
RE: Political Correctness Gone Mad?
(April 27, 2009 at 3:43 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote:
(April 27, 2009 at 2:38 pm)bozo Wrote: SIGH...it was you that fired off the first " shrug ", mine was more ironic.
The " actual point " was about Love Thy Neighbour, which you think failed to make its point. Now I'll agree with you insofaras it wasn't an hilariously funny programme, in fact it was emarrassing at times, but in the context of undermining racism it very much hit the mark. If you remember, it featured a very unusual, possibly first-ever sitcom where an articulate and attractive black couple were contrasted with a slobbish white couple who thought they were superior merely by virtue of their colour. ( more so the male than the woman, to be fair ). The male character was all that was bad about British working-class racism of the times.
Do I make my point clearly enough for you?

Ironic my arse! If you'd explained it like that in the first place instead of being an d*** then maybe I'd have listened.

Kyu
Have you suddenly gone deaf then? Or will you cut and run as you normally do when you're on the defensive?
(April 27, 2009 at 4:05 pm)Tiberius Wrote:
(April 27, 2009 at 2:38 pm)bozo Wrote: History is never irrelevant, it just suits some arguments to claim it is.
No, it just suits some counter-arguments to claim that history is always relevant, and that we must never make jokes about our past thinking, that we must never make black dolls with weird heads because they might be "misinterpreted". The majority of us have got over this, it is a shame you haven't. I guess a good parallel would be the gay movement, who have received equality (at least socially) in this country, and yet jokes are still made about them. There are so many BBC shows that lampoon homosexuals, and yet nobody claims "intolerance" because people understand that these things are jokes, they are funny.
Quote:I thought I agreed that calling someone a name like " bitch " is not of itself racist.
Yes but you also asked if she was racist, and said that neither of us could know. I was simply saying this isn't the point. Gordon Brown could be secretly racist, but as long as he doesn't say anything racist there is no reason to argue that he is.
Quote:You label anti-racists as racist and wonder why I say bollocks?
Yes, and you still haven't given me any kind of explanation of your view. I say the anti-racists have turned racism on its head, effectively reversing it. When a white person insults a white person, it is fine. When a white person insults a black person, it is racism. It doesn't matter what they say, if you insult a black person you are being intolerant. I also oppose allowing rappers to get away with the word "nigger" when for a white person to say that would cause offense everywhere. What do you call it when some people have a certain ability and others are prohibited because of the colour of their skin? Oh yes, that's right: racism.
Quote:The theory is whether a golliwog is the benign toy you seem to claim it is. I don't expect you to act on my challenge but I thought you were intelligent enough to see the problem. You probably do, but for whatever reason you avoid it.
I see it as a benign toy, so do my peers. I'm not going to test your "theory" because it has nothing to do with the point, and you made it as a strawman of my argument. You reckon that I think the golliwog is a depiction of a black person, and so I should be able to call black people "golliwogs". This isn't what I claimed at all. I say the golliwog doll, to me, is a funny looking doll. It shouldn't be associated with black people because it is obviously not a very flattering depiction of them. If we can accept that the doll is a doll that isn't supposed to represent black people, then I see no reason why people can't own them.
Quote:Do you and your friends have a wider perspective than Egham for judging if racism still exists in Britain or not?
Obviously I cannot speak for my friends on this matter, but I'd say that the majority of England isn't racist. The BNP is a scary party that might attract such people, but it is quite small and the fact that it doesn't get elected is a sign to me that it is more of a fringe party that will eventually disappear.

I'm sure you have the mindset that you must WIN and you must have the last word. Well I'll cut to the chase.
The evidence ( I know how much you value evidence ) suggests to me that you come under the category of being in denial of your racist tendency.
That evidence started ( since I've been here ) with a blatantly racist post about the failings of black politicians. I and others challenged the post....your reaction was not to join in the challenge, not to agree that the post was racist, rather to caution against playing the racist card.
You have followed this up in this thread with the arguments you have put forward.
I am not going to repeat what you have said...it's there for all to measure and judge.
HuhA man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
Reply
#35
RE: Political Correctness Gone Mad?
My perception is:

That OJ Simpson was a douchebag who became a murdering douchebag.

Michael Jackson is a fruitcake and probably a child molestor.

I deny the innate "right" of Israel or of any nation to exist. Israel seems to have committed crimes against humanity towards the Palestinians.

In attempting (and failing dismally) to take the moral high ground,Israel is simply resorting to the tired old Tu quoque fallacy.


Am I racist? Probably,in some ways, although I do my best not to be. However, I don't see myself as an anti Semite or anti black. I criticise behaviour and character,but not race, just as I don't criticise large groups of people because of their religion.

I have not read all of Adrian's post,probably only a few dozen. I haven't noticed any "racist tendencies." In my opinion the accusation is a fatuous ad hominem attack.
Reply
#36
RE: Political Correctness Gone Mad?
(April 27, 2009 at 6:56 pm)bozo Wrote: Have you suddenly gone deaf then? Or will you cut and run as you normally do when you're on the defensive?

Please point out exactly where I have done that or withdraw the fucking assertion.

Kyu
Angry Atheism
Where those who are hacked off with the stupidity of irrational belief can vent their feelings!
Come over to the dark side, we have cookies!

Kyuuketsuki, AngryAtheism Owner & Administrator
Reply
#37
RE: Political Correctness Gone Mad?
(April 27, 2009 at 6:56 pm)bozo Wrote: I'm sure you have the mindset that you must WIN and you must have the last word. Well I'll cut to the chase.
Start the thread out with a worthless ad hominem attack, nice. Could it possibly be that I am replying to you because you raise points and I am refuting them? Did that ever cross your mind? No! It's because I somehow need the last word! I don't need the last word, but I'm not going to let my position be misconstrued by yourself as you have done repeatedly either.
Quote:The evidence ( I know how much you value evidence ) suggests to me that you come under the category of being in denial of your racist tendency.
Yet another ad hominem, and a completely baseless one. Notice how you even undermine your own position by calling "racism!". I already said this was the exact behaviour of the anti-racism movement, and you have proved me correct yet again. We can't even have a discussion about the different mindsets of people these days without someone coming along and saying "you are just racist". It's pretty pathetic.
Quote:That evidence started ( since I've been here ) with a blatantly racist post about the failings of black politicians. I and others challenged the post....your reaction was not to join in the challenge, not to agree that the post was racist, rather to caution against playing the racist card.
Let's take a look at what josef said shall we?
Quote:I would like to confess that being in principle against racism I'm also a skeptic about the achievements of black politicians.
So he starts out by saying he is against racism on principle (a good thing I think we can all agree), but then he says he is a skeptic of black politicians' achievements. He goes on to list some black politicians, and how he doesn't think they have done anything. He lists Nelson Mandela with AIDS for example.

Now I think that this was simply a misunderstanding on josef's part; that he hadn't properly researched some of the great things black leaders have done for their country. I also think he used the "correlation therefore causation" fallacy, and this should have been pointed out to him. However the conversation where people accepted his viewpoint and countered it was cut short by you and others who screamed "RACISM!" at the top of your heads before josef had a chance to explain himself.

Oh, and did you know that josef did explain himself later on? Perhaps you missed that. As I suspected, he wasn't being racist (he said that in his original post, but whatever):
josef Wrote:I mentioned the failure of Mandela and other black politicians as a fact of a personal matter without any connection to the colour of their skin,they could be from that point of view one-eyed or three-legged or else.
Apparently a person cannot even have a discussion about different views on a discussion forum of all places without people attacking them for merely wanting to discuss something controversial. Are you one of those people who complains loudly whenever a show like South Park do something that can be interpreted as racist? (Every episode I think).
Reply
#38
RE: Political Correctness Gone Mad?
(April 28, 2009 at 5:51 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote:
(April 27, 2009 at 6:56 pm)bozo Wrote: Have you suddenly gone deaf then? Or will you cut and run as you normally do when you're on the defensive?

Please point out exactly where I have done that or withdraw the fucking assertion.

Kyu

I didn't think I had to go into such detail about Love Thy Neighbour, being the age you are ( a few years younger than me ). When I did, you didnt even bother to agree or disagree, just rudely stated I should have offered that detail in the first place and then you would have listened! Who the fuck do you think you are?
(April 28, 2009 at 12:02 am)padraic Wrote: My perception is:

That OJ Simpson was a douchebag who became a murdering douchebag.

Michael Jackson is a fruitcake and probably a child molestor.

I deny the innate "right" of Israel or of any nation to exist. Israel seems to have committed crimes against humanity towards the Palestinians.

In attempting (and failing dismally) to take the moral high ground,Israel is simply resorting to the tired old Tu quoque fallacy.


Am I racist? Probably,in some ways, although I do my best not to be. However, I don't see myself as an anti Semite or anti black. I criticise behaviour and character,but not race, just as I don't criticise large groups of people because of their religion.

I have not read all of Adrian's post,probably only a few dozen. I haven't noticed any "racist tendencies." In my opinion the accusation is a fatuous ad hominem attack.

No it's not. Adrian has his own definition of racism and labels anti-racists ( such as me ) racist.
Is that not an attack?
As to whether he is in denial, that's a possible conclusion I draw from his posts.
You may not agree, that's your privilege.
(April 28, 2009 at 6:58 am)Tiberius Wrote:
(April 27, 2009 at 6:56 pm)bozo Wrote: I'm sure you have the mindset that you must WIN and you must have the last word. Well I'll cut to the chase.
Start the thread out with a worthless ad hominem attack, nice. Could it possibly be that I am replying to you because you raise points and I am refuting them? Did that ever cross your mind? No! It's because I somehow need the last word! I don't need the last word, but I'm not going to let my position be misconstrued by yourself as you have done repeatedly either.
Quote:The evidence ( I know how much you value evidence ) suggests to me that you come under the category of being in denial of your racist tendency.
Yet another ad hominem, and a completely baseless one. Notice how you even undermine your own position by calling "racism!". I already said this was the exact behaviour of the anti-racism movement, and you have proved me correct yet again. We can't even have a discussion about the different mindsets of people these days without someone coming along and saying "you are just racist". It's pretty pathetic.
Quote:That evidence started ( since I've been here ) with a blatantly racist post about the failings of black politicians. I and others challenged the post....your reaction was not to join in the challenge, not to agree that the post was racist, rather to caution against playing the racist card.
Let's take a look at what josef said shall we?
Quote:I would like to confess that being in principle against racism I'm also a skeptic about the achievements of black politicians.
So he starts out by saying he is against racism on principle (a good thing I think we can all agree), but then he says he is a skeptic of black politicians' achievements. He goes on to list some black politicians, and how he doesn't think they have done anything. He lists Nelson Mandela with AIDS for example.

Now I think that this was simply a misunderstanding on josef's part; that he hadn't properly researched some of the great things black leaders have done for their country. I also think he used the "correlation therefore causation" fallacy, and this should have been pointed out to him. However the conversation where people accepted his viewpoint and countered it was cut short by you and others who screamed "RACISM!" at the top of your heads before josef had a chance to explain himself.

Oh, and did you know that josef did explain himself later on? Perhaps you missed that. As I suspected, he wasn't being racist (he said that in his original post, but whatever):
josef Wrote:I mentioned the failure of Mandela and other black politicians as a fact of a personal matter without any connection to the colour of their skin,they could be from that point of view one-eyed or three-legged or else.
Apparently a person cannot even have a discussion about different views on a discussion forum of all places without people attacking them for merely wanting to discuss something controversial. Are you one of those people who complains loudly whenever a show like South Park do something that can be interpreted as racist? (Every episode I think).

You do surprise me. I expected you to hotly deny my suggestion that based on the evidence to hand you are possibly a racist in denial. You don't.
Would you like to?
HuhA man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
Reply
#39
RE: Political Correctness Gone Mad?
(April 28, 2009 at 11:56 am)bozo Wrote: You do surprise me. I expected you to hotly deny my suggestion that based on the evidence to hand you are possibly a racist in denial. You don't.
Would you like to?
Erm...I was under the impression I did:

"Yet another ad hominem, and a completely baseless one."

"It's pretty pathetic."
bozo Wrote:No it's not. Adrian has his own definition of racism and labels anti-racists ( such as me ) racist.
Is that not an attack?
Firstly, I have not got my own definition of racism. Racism is the belief that certain races are superior to others. I hold no such views. Racism promotes discrimination of certain races, as well as intolerance to them. I promote equality between all races. I have nothing to gain from being a racist, and I find the position of racism to be disgusting and shameful.

Also, before you attempt to claim an "ad-hominem" on me (although you certainly like using them yourself), please note the difference between calling a group or movement "racist" and calling an individual racist. I have never called you racist, and I have never implied it of you. I call the anti-racist movement racist because all they have done is make it "ok" for some races to say certain things whilst other races cannot. I sincerely doubt a white person could let their child carry a golliwog around in public without getting harassed, but the same could not be said if the child was of black parents.

I'm advocating an either/or strategy. Either something is wrong for all or it is not wrong at all. If a black person can have a golliwog, so should the rest of us. If a black person can say "nigger" then so should the rest of us. An atheist activist last year was criticized for using the word "Negro" in a speech, and people started throwing all kinds of "racist" accusations at him, conveniently forgetting the existence of the "United Negro College Fund". Either the word "negro" is unacceptable for everyone, or it is acceptable for everyone. There is no in-between that one can logically support.
Reply
#40
RE: Political Correctness Gone Mad?
Great post Adrian.

That last line reminds me of when George Carlin says in 'it's bad for ya' near the end; that he believes "we either have unlimited rights, or we have no rights at all."

And then how he personally leans towards unlimited rights, etc; and also good humour follows. Great end to his last HBO.
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  They're all mad save thee and me... Gawdzilla Sama 9 762 September 9, 2020 at 8:36 am
Last Post: Angrboda
  The Different Economic and Political Systems Mechaghostman2 0 203 February 18, 2019 at 10:07 pm
Last Post: Mechaghostman2
  Do you have friends who don’t share your political views? Losty 13 1735 November 19, 2018 at 12:00 am
Last Post: GrandizerII
  Since I’ve been gone... J a c k 28 3146 August 19, 2018 at 1:05 pm
Last Post: Crossless2.0
  Rep-pimping thread for the Mad Cosmic Emperor Iroscato Iroscato 60 7751 August 26, 2017 at 6:38 am
Last Post: Little lunch
  Uh-oh, maybe Facebook is finally gone Foxaèr 7 1545 June 16, 2017 at 10:02 am
Last Post: Foxaèr
  Political Test account_inactive 179 14168 November 24, 2016 at 3:33 am
Last Post: ReptilianPeon
  Show off your Mad Photographic skillz ErGingerbreadMandude 22 2093 May 31, 2016 at 7:22 pm
Last Post: energizer bunny
Exclamation I have gone to the dark side. Aractus 7 1959 March 26, 2016 at 8:26 pm
Last Post: Aractus
  political satire ignoramus 0 690 January 13, 2016 at 6:58 am
Last Post: ignoramus



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)