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RE: Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus?
January 7, 2012 at 6:38 am
KichigaiNeko Wrote:Sorry chip...this forum is not a teaching forum...most of the atheist people on here have tertiary science at least under their belts
convient excuse. i'm not asking for a lesson just an explination and possibly some evidence.
Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:What's wrong with your explanation is that you conveniently fail to mention that the variable rates of C14 production and C14/C12 ratios are well understood, that calibration is done to account for them, and that you have no point.
so they know about the variability of the radiation the earth is exposed to but assume they know how much. how can they know for sure how much the earth was exposed to 5000 years ago? it's not constant change, it's varied.
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RE: Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus?
January 7, 2012 at 6:46 am
(This post was last modified: January 7, 2012 at 6:54 am by Jackalope.)
(January 7, 2012 at 6:38 am)chipan Wrote: Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:What's wrong with your explanation is that you conveniently fail to mention that the variable rates of C14 production and C14/C12 ratios are well understood, that calibration is done to account for them, and that you have no point.
so they know about the variability of the radiation the earth is exposed to but assume they know how much. how can they know for sure how much the earth was exposed to 5000 years ago? it's not constant change, it's varied.
No kidding, really? Do you think that scientists don't know this?
In all seriousness, the information you are asking for is easy to find with google. Yes, the factors influencing the accuracy of C14 dating are not constant. The link I gave you addresses this, and even tells you some of the ways that the historical rates of C14 production were determined.
Start there and investigate it yourself. I led you to the answer to your question, I'm not going to spoon feed all of it to you.
In addition - by saying that they "assume they know how much", what you're really saying is that YOU assume that they assume they know how much. This isn't the case at all. Let me give you a little advice - and this isn't intended to be derogatory at all (and yes, I do realize I have done so in the past). That you don't understand how something works is OK. It's OK to say you don't know. Knowing that you don't understand something is the first step to gaining understanding. It's pretty clear from your posts that you don't understand carbon dating - and that's OK. I suspect it's just a matter of you trusting the wrong people to tell you the truth about it. There are apologists who's apparent understanding of radiometric dating is stuck in the 1950's, and they're using criticisms of the method that simply are no longer applicable.
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RE: Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus?
January 7, 2012 at 10:34 am
(January 7, 2012 at 6:38 am)chipan Wrote: KichigaiNeko Wrote:Sorry chip...this forum is not a teaching forum...most of the atheist people on here have tertiary science at least under their belts
convient excuse. i'm not asking for a lesson just an explination and possibly some evidence.
No dear you are asking to be spoon fed like an infant. As Cthulhu has said you will be given an answer to your question...should you not understand it that's ok do some more research until you do understand or come back with questions relating to the reference material you have looked at. Coming here whining about not getting any answers then trying to turn the discussion into and aggressive mud slinging match is only serving to make you look very stupid indeed and indicative of the low level of cretinists education everywhere.
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RE: Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus?
January 7, 2012 at 10:36 am
My advice, Chip, is to go to the library. A librarian can help you find books on precisely what you want to know.
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RE: Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus?
January 7, 2012 at 11:06 am
KichigaiNeko Wrote:No dear you are asking to be spoon fed like an infant.
no i'm looking for an explination beyond "no you're wrong"
Shell B Wrote:My advice, Chip, is to go to the library. A librarian can help you find books on precisely what you want to know.
you know at least Cthulhu Dreaming was willing to admit that i knew what i was talking about i just left one thing out. you don't give me any credit reguardless of how many facts i have on my side. and btw, i read wikipedia about the calibration methods and they say they calibrate them but don't say by how much in what situations and how they deturmine how much they need to calibrate them.
Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
-4th verse of the american national anthem
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RE: Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus?
January 7, 2012 at 11:10 am
Chip, you have got to slow down a little before you post. I was not commenting on your knowledge on the specific subject. I was giving you advice on how to find information that you feel you might need. I find that you are often posting based on misreading my posts. Take a deep breath and reread if you find yourself doing that too often. Okay? Relax.
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RE: Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus?
January 7, 2012 at 11:15 am
He doesn't want to find information. He wants someone to tell him that his fairy tale view of the world is right.
Nothing else is required for people like chippy.
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RE: Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus?
January 7, 2012 at 11:25 am
(This post was last modified: January 7, 2012 at 12:24 pm by chi pan.)
i'll look sry go ahead and post it.
ok anyways going back to what KichigaiNeko was saying about jesus being a made up story similar to that of the Egyptions, there are many historical documents saying he exists. no one questioned his existance until recently. was it because they were closed minded? no even skeptics said he existed. this has never been the arguement and it has recently become the arguemtent simply to further degrade christianity. everyone knew he existed. there's more evidence of it than anyone of his time. there are no written works of his own but the same was true for Mohamed. there are no artifacts we can find for him because he lived 2000 years ago and didn't own anything significant. he didn't own a unique piece of Jewelry or anything like that. to say he doesn't exist because we can't find any artifacts we can attribute to him isn't saying much at all. i have said many times to provide any historical documents around the time of Jesus saying he never existed but no one provided any. instead they just simply deny my evidence for no reason and refer me to jesusneverexisted.com over and over. really that's the only site that has evidence saying he never existed, but it's false evidence. saying that Nazareth never existed during the time of Jesus but it did just as a small villiage. i posted evidence about this and it was mostly ignored.
to conclude this post, i'm going to say if you have any evidence that Jesus please come forward and post it. it's a waste of time to just come and say "you're wrong" and "there are no historical documents" with nothing to back yourself up. evidence is welcomed, meaningless comments are not. this is not what the arguement should be. the arguement should be and always has been "is Jesus the son of God?" there should be no question that Jesus existed as a man the same way Mohamed, buddha, etc. existed. there's actually more evidence that he existed than those 2 anyways. it shouldn't be questioned it's well known fact and it's in our history textbooks in our schools.
Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
-4th verse of the american national anthem
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RE: Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus?
January 7, 2012 at 12:47 pm
(This post was last modified: January 7, 2012 at 12:49 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
RC dating works for some things, not so much for others. There are plenty of alternatives, and each has a range associated with it (including a range of suitable applications and error). The problems with RC dating (and other radiometric dating methods, as well as some other fun types used for specific things like pottery) is that they don't give us a picture of the past that matches the fairy tales we created to explain the same out of ignorance. This has nothing to do with the accuracy of these methods, which isn't even remotely in question.
This same argument can be used in the service of Zues or Lamfada. No one doubted that they existed either. They did not. They do not. No one has to provide you with anything, your god-man, your task. By the by, I don't think that Mohammed or Buddha existed either (if you'd like to take up those banners as well be my guest).
Wait, textbooks are good when they give jesus the go, but evolution, the age of the cosmos, and radiometric dating(also in textbooks) are flat out wrong?
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RE: Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus?
January 7, 2012 at 4:33 pm
(January 7, 2012 at 11:06 am)chipan Wrote: i read wikipedia about the calibration methods and they say they calibrate them but don't say by how much in what situations and how they deturmine how much they need to calibrate them.
In order for you to get THAT information, you're going to have to do a lot of heavy reading. The wikipedia article I gave you has a number of references to get you started.
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