Challenge

[Sai]

Hullo!
To myself: welcome to the Atheist Forum!
Myself: Thank youuu!

Hold on...! That's a weird kind of introduction...

Uh, anyways... Let's get to the core of the matter. Here's the deal:
I want you, you godforsaken Atheists, to challenge my belief. If you haven't noticed by my info on the top left corner, I am a follower of Christ; in other words, I don't have a religious affiliation. I don't need a priest to tell me what god wants to say to me - I get my info first hand :) .

The conclusion I have come to is that Jesus' words contain a truth that can't be found through the scientific method or any other strictly material means. The bible, as imperfect as it may sometimes appear to be, is a culmination of human attemps to establish our connection to god. It makes it possible for us to get into a relationship with the purest human to have walked on the face of the earth - and consequently with our creator himself.
I think it's insane to take the bible absolutely literally, but at the same time I am certain that everything the bible says is true and infinitely valuable.

Since, like I said, I believe this to be the truth, I don't mind some challenging questions.
Because you'll burn in hell anyway.
Juuust kiddin' ^^ !

No, I hope we can get into an enjoyable and peaceful discussion. I have seen my fair share of dogma on both sides of the fence, so I hope that we can stay civil and mature. Which means that you have to agree with everything I say. Or you'll burrrrn...!!! XD

(Please forgive me for my rather... peculiar sense of humor ^^ )

[g-mark]

I challnge your belief. What is your question?

[leo-rcc]

Hi Sai,

Welcome to the forum.

[Edwardo Piet]

Well I ask of you...if in general, when we decide whether something is true or not, we require evidnece, why should we make an exception here?

Because the bible is not evidence. And why should we make an exception and let it pass without evidence?

Also:

I think it's insane to take the bible absolutely literally, but at the same time I am certain that everything the bible says is true and infinitely valuable.

Can you explain this a bit more? Because how can you say it's insane to take the bible absolutely literally and then go on to say that you do however believe, and are certain, that EVERYTHING in the bible is true and infinitely valuable? How do you reconcile that? Can you elaborate on that please?

...and how do you do that 'at the same time'?

And welcome to the forums...it's not the oddest of introductions and I don't really care if it is or not so long as it's in good cheer (not breaking any forum rules, etc).

EvF

[Sai]

Thanks very much for the warm welcome leo, you made my entrance a bit less awkward XD !
And thank you for your questions, EvidenceVsFaith!
Naturally, I'll try my best to provide you with some answers !

if in general, when we decide whether something is true or not, we require evidnece, why should we make an exception here?

I wouldn't say that I make an exception. Some things can't be comprehended consciously, but can be understood emotionally and spiritually. Empiricism is a great way of finding material truth, but even though it's a very precise and reliable method for that realm, I don't think it's wise to conclude that it is the one and only way. In fact, I can turn the question around: do you require evidence for every little facet of life? I'm sure you don't - we constantly trust and believe in what our body and our soul tells us. But once the consciousness gets "trained" to work with evidence, it begins to deny the other ways of finding truth.

Because how can you say it's insane to take the bible absolutely literally and then go on to say that you do however believe, and are certain, that EVERYTHING in the bible is true and infinitely valuable? How do you reconcile that? Can you elaborate on that please?

Taking the Bible literally is synonymous to looking at it through the lens of empiricism. It doesn't work, it's like hammering a nail in with rubber. Yet, it's what even so-called believers continually attempt to do.
I think it's a lot like looking at a long mathematical formula and expecting it to make sense if you read it like a novel. You won't have much fun with that...
And in the case of the bible, the truth in it must be experienced and felt, not analyzed like a factual document. It should be looked upon more like a piece of art or music and not like a history book. The way to read it properly is innate to us, but I think it can't be forced or taught in sunday school or at church (actually, trying to teach it makes it usually only harder to understand). That's why so many people falsly use it for immoral ends... and it's also why Jesus wasn't a big fan of churches.
Just like it's insane to try to read the theory of relativity like a suspense novel, it won't get you far if you take the bible literal. But if read properly, you will find an enormous amount of value in both.

I hope that cleared things up a little ! Thanks so much for participating in my "challenge"!

---

I challnge your belief. What is your question?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean - would you like me to challenge your belief before you challenge mine?
If that is the case, I don't know what you believe, so...

[g-mark]

ok.

Do you follow 'jesus' or 'god'?

[Tiberius]

Empiricism is a great way of finding material truth, but even though it's a very precise and reliable method for that realm, I don't think it's wise to conclude that it is the one and only way.

You have no way of knowing that any other "realms" exist though, and so I think it is very wise to conclude that it is the one and only way. Otherwise anyone can jump in and claim they can contact other realms of existence, and nobody can do anything to refute them.

do you require evidence for every little facet of life? I'm sure you don't - we constantly trust and believe in what our body and our soul tells us.

In short, yes we do. All of us do it. Forget the soul but, because such wording is useless to people like us. But in regards to our body, yes we have a certain level of trust towards our body. However this trust slowly built up from an early age. We learned (empirically) that the things our body was telling us were important. When we felt hungry, we knew we had to be fed. Why? Because when we were young this was exactly what our parents did for us. Likewise, we know that our bodies can fool us. When I am intoxicated with alcohol, I know (well I try) not to trust everything I am doing. My balance is off, and I often see things that aren't there. We know when to trust and when not to trust our bodies.

[Sai]

ok.

Do you follow 'jesus' or 'god'?

I think that Jesus' words are true and therefore try to follow them, god didn't actually taught us much directly. I don't think it's possible for humans to even follow god, that's why he had to be "translated" for us through Jesus.

[WWLD]

ok.

Do you follow 'jesus' or 'god'?

I think that Jesus' words are true and therefore try to follow them, god didn't actually taught us much directly. I don't think it's possible for humans to even follow god, that's why he had to be "translated" for us through Jesus.

I find it interesting that you choose one over the other. I was raised a Christian, and I was taught that the "father, son and the holy spirit" were all one. Jesus, the "son", was God in human form, the holy spirit was God in the form of a spirit.

So when you say Jesus taught you more directly, it really was "god" teaching you, but in the form of a human so he COULD teach you directly by coming to earth. He wouldn't be able to teach you directly if he wasn't human on earth would he? So "God" translated himself with a human form of himself?

What are your thoughts on that?

[Tiberius]

On that note, why do you think Jesus' words are true? What makes him a prophet?