Mitt Romney income calculator

[paintpooper]

Wow, are you an idiot. To get that wealth, you have to accumulate it from others. How hard is that to understand?

It's reciprocal which is why it's fair and why competition works. The ad hominem attacks are amazing in this thread.

The end goal of society should not be to live off each other, but rather to provide for one's self.

That is an even more idiotic assertion. Looking at our roots and our closest evolutionary cousins, it seems that society is nothing BUT living off each other.

Why the fuck else would a social species for groups, troops and dynasties, if not for the very purpose of living off, in some way, another?

Durrrrrr.

Society = The aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community.

Not living off each other, but rather living together. You can live together while competing for resources in an orderly manner.

In true capitalism all have equal opportunity through education to compete equally. The problem is that education is lacking currently. Don't hate the economic system - hate the current state of affairs.

Society = the people!
YES. If everything was running correctly we wouldn't need unemployment and things of that nature. We need to become in equilibrium with the planet and the people.
Economics is very simple on the basic levels, taxes, fines, loopholes, fiat money, interest, debt, and all these other economic realities make it fucked up.
We are a consumer waste country, no product should be made without it being a useful product that someone else needs. Cause if not the business should cease to exist.
Education gets us all on the same playing field. We all need to be educated to use rational thought and critical thinking. We humans are able to decide things our for ourselves, we don't need a government entity controlling us and our businesses.
In nature we didn't go around finding food and shelter and if we didn't find any we had someone just had us some food. No we used our minds to think about the current situation and how to fix our own problems, small local communities coming together to do what is best for them. We are not individuals but a society and culture.

Seems like a lot of people are stuck in the current economic and work style paradigm, when the real solution is a completely different way of life and government.

[Perhaps]

People wouldn't work if they felt they weren't getting paid enough

Another naive response. People work because they must do so to survive in this fucked up system. What kind of social vacuum do you live in? thats why some people have to work 2 or 3 jobs and never have a life. Not because they "feel" that they arent being paid enough...but because they KNOW they arent being paid enough and have to work much more just to make ends meet.

We are in a recession. Service jobs will get their jobs back and the factory workers will live on welfare. It takes time for a market to recover. We aren't living in the 80's or the 90's anymore. Service jobs aren't as valuable as they once were, because more and more people are able to do them. Those who invested in advanced education are now feeling the benefits. To those who didn't they are now hurting. It all comes back to marginal analysis.

look at people who get laid off and refuse to work minimum wage jobs and use well fare.

Right, so if I have two car payments, a house payment, and 2 children, me losing my $25 an hour job...I should go directly to a minimum wage job and be glad that the rich "job proivders" are taking care of the system. And if I work hard enough then maybe I too will be rich one day.

As I have said before, what kind of social vaccum do you live in?

This comes back to education. We have moved from the industrial era to the post industrial. The menial jobs are being taken over by technology and the requirements for well paying jobs are going up (as they naturally should). To possess a high paying job requires adequate knowledge. The individuals with degrees in fields which are necessary or advanced will retain their employment, while individuals working in factories (being taken over by technology) will lose their job as there is no advanced education required. The only reason services companies are letting go and laying off their employees is because of the recession - this happens every time we have one. The jobs will return.

Once again, it is not the responsibility of the business owners to guarantee employment - the business fluctuates as much as the economy. A business' goal is to maximizes profits while increasing production, simple as that. When the market crashes and services become scarce or demand for services becomes scarce there is a reaction. It's all simple economics which people avoid to provide justifications for their situations. [/quote]

BTW - its "welfare", not "well fare". You also seem to be completely ignorant to what welfare is anyways. Welfare is an insurance that has been PAID FOR by the person who is collecting it in most all of the cases. If I work 20 freaking years paying into welfare, and some scum bag decides to move my job to the philipines to pay children 2% of my original pay to do the work I once did...then you mean to tell me I should NOT take advantage of the welfare insurance I have paid into and purchased?

I apologize for my misspelling, and I am aware that we all pay into welfare, even the rich. It's there for a reason, and many people (more than I would prefer) are using it now. I'm sorry your job got shipped off, but open economies often work best in creating efficiency overall. You may have lost your job, but whatever service or good you provided is now being provided for much cheaper. Say you make sweaters and get paid $15 an hour, if they export the making of sweaters to a place that only charges $2 an hour then the good will effectively cost less. A great example is Walmart. The system as it is currently exploits the poor, I agree, but more importantly, it exploits the uneducated.

I have a suggestion. How about you actually do your homework on a subject before you type your ignorance upon this board for all to see and cringe at.

*Bet you dont know jack shit about unemployment benefits as well*

Thanks for your opinion.

Lastly, it reflects a lot about a person's character when they dictate their feelings of someone based on a simple difference in opinion.

Then clearly you havent the foggiest notion between "opinion" and "fact". It is quite obvious that you are extremely ignorant to the social safety nets of America, and even basic economic system in America. Just like your mentioning of predictions of gas prices. Does that INCLUDE the billions we give annually in oil subsidies, will we be removing them? Or did you not know anything about such govt plans?

I'd beg to differ. You stated your opinion on economics and I stated mine. I used facts and you used facts. We can make it a debate, or we can keep it a discussion. Your responses are heated, and I'm sure that you have some personal knowledge of the system and the system's safety nets. My knowledge is learned through text and discussion. I'm sorry for what you've been through, but facts are facts, and to misrepresent them or to use misinterpreted ideas as an argument is invalid. I have stated what capitalism is, how our system can be fixed, and why the rich aren't to blame. You can feel free to disagree with any of them, but why base your opinion of my character on these?

The ad hominem attacks are amazing in this thread.

Especially the ones you have been posting:
"On a forum which celebrates intellectual conversation, I'm amazed at how many people have the socialist mindset. "
Ad-hom and blanket statement: All socialists are not intellectuals

You inferred a meaning from my words. Socialism has many many flaws inherent to its structure (Please I beg of you, do not tell me I don't know what Socialism is or its difference from Communism). While capitalism also does, I feel they are lesser as capitalism abides by the fundamental basic nature of things - competition, scarcity, etc.. I love discussing competing systems of economics but at the end of the day I am honestly surprised by how many individuals support the socialist mindset - even with its flaws.

educate the poor and you solve the problem

THIS, is why I keep calling you naive.

What would be your suggestion if mine is so naive? I would love to see education being the primary focus of government. I would love to see college education paid for by government. I would love to see children succeed with actual grades, not ones given to pass them along in the broken system.

I feel that the current working generations have made their own decisions about how to live their lives and perform in their careers. The least they can do is learn from their own mistakes, look to the future, and realize that their children still have a chance in this world while they, themselves may not.

I ache when I hear of people being laid off. It sickens me to hear of corporate greed. I can't fathom what this country has come to with politicians being bought and businesses ruling the country. These things combined do not change my opinion that Capitalism, true and honest capitalism, is the most efficient, most effective, and most realistic economic system available.

[reverendjeremiah]

This comes back to education. We have moved from the industrial era to the post industrial. The menial jobs are being taken over by technology and the requirements for well paying jobs are going up (as they naturally should). To possess a high paying job requires adequate knowledge. The individuals with degrees in fields which are necessary or advanced will retain their employment, while individuals working in factories (being taken over by technology) will lose their job as there is no advanced education required. The only reason services companies are letting go and laying off their employees is because of the recession - this happens every time we have one. The jobs will return.

But recessions are part and parcel of this type of economic system we use in America. which is a mixed economy. Even if we shifted over to Austrian school it would not change the problem of recession. No, in fact austrian school would make it worse as there would be no injection of stimulus where stimulus was needed. The problem with keynesian, as well as Austrian (if we go that route) with our current government model is that neither deal with the actual problem of our system: the corporate Government. As long as vast amounts of moneys can fall into the hands of a select few, the system will always suffer recessions. In fact, i would say the best way to invest your money, in this current American system, would be to purchase politicians. Simply take a decent sum of money, give half to the democrat party, give the other half to the Republican party. Ask them to drop the capital gains tax, thereby increasing your net profit from other investments. BINGO! You are now making even more money without producing a fucking thing. there are many other "loop holes" that can be bought and created to ensure you gain much more money back than you spent on the politicians. to top it off, buy promising to keep a politician on the payroll after they "retire" from politics makes it even easier to bribe other politicians in the future.

This comes back to education.

It has less to do with education and more to do with having a decent amount of capital behind you. If you buy the right politician for his "insights", he will show you the ropes on how to invest into the Corporate Government States of America. they will show you all the loop holes, grey areas, who to bribe with what, how to set up disposable companies, etc...etc... it is no longer about production in our country. It is about who is the best paper pusher.

Things like this are what crash markets. Creating new forms of trade on wallstreet, drawing in all of the new money, and then right before the shit goes toxic you make the move. how many times does this have to happen before people realize that crooked business in cohoots with crooked politicians are the biggest factor of recessions and depressions? Once you rake in all of that cash, you sit on it. You sit on it for a long time. Preferably you were really smart if you bought up lots of commodities such as copper before you made your move. You have to be able to sit on your earnings for a time along with your commodities. Eventually the people will be so barking mad and full of anger and hatred it will be easy to stir them up into a war. When that happens you sell your copper at outragious markup prices. Your cash will see a resurge in value. Once America has properly invaded a country, you can then make a move into that country and take advantage of the class warfare structure again. Move your factories over to the newely anaexed corporate zones, cut your wage costs by 90%, and then you can beat the competition in America by charging 10% less than the competition.

Eventually the entire system will break down if it keeps going like that. Eventually there will be no decent paid jobs in America, and cash will be scarcer than ever before. This is typically when armed revolution will happen, for better or for worse.

I'm sorry for what you've been through, but facts are facts, and to misrepresent them or to use misinterpreted ideas as an argument is invalid. I have stated what capitalism is, how our system can be fixed, and why the rich aren't to blame. You can feel free to disagree with any of them, but why base your opinion of my character on these?

Meh, you still support the potential of abuse. As long as you support the concept of "rich", then you support the concept of "poor".

I feel they are lesser as capitalism abides by the fundamental basic nature of things - competition, scarcity, etc.. I love discussing competing systems of economics but at the end of the day I am honestly surprised by how many individuals support the socialist mindset - even with its flaws.

Explain to me how someone can claim to be civilised, yet encourage humans to compete against each other at the same time? Capitalism, as we know it right now, encourages people to stab each other in the back. And this isnt some monopoly money crap. These are people lives we are talking about.

You inferred a meaning from my words

Yeah right.

What would be your suggestion if mine is so naive?

I have many suggestions, I have posted them in several places on this forum. The problem is there is no easy fix that I can think of. Corporations and government are so entrenched that it will be extremely difficult to change anything. The country goes more and more right wing as the days go by. Most of the changes I suggest would provoke extreme reaction amongst many citizens in America.

Its one of the reasons why I call your education idea as naive. Currently there is a trend to defund public schooling in order to run all education through private schools. Im sure I dont have to explain to you how that would be bad. Then again, public schools arent that much better.
I have quite a bit of higher education in technical feilds, yet with the shipping out of production facilities of America does all of us harm.

I would love to see education being the primary focus of government.

Why would the corporate owned government want educated voters? they want you smart enough to follow their commands, nothing more, nothing less.

I ache when I hear of people being laid off. It sickens me to hear of corporate greed. I can't fathom what this country has come to with politicians being bought and businesses ruling the country. These things combined do not change my opinion that Capitalism, true and honest capitalism, is the most efficient, most effective, and most realistic economic system available.

Yet this is how capitalism works. You cannot in one hand support the idea of the citizens competing against each other for their livelyhood, yet in the other hand lament the carnage wrought through the application of such a concept.

Which one is it? Support of competition or cooperation? You really cant have both. Either we all compete or we all come together.

[Perhaps]

Perhaps once must look at utility rather than ideals when dealing with the realm of realism. The end goal of all systems is essentially the same, it's the methods which are employed to get there which differ. We are animals, we rationalize, we respond to stimuli and we are often arrogant and risk averse. These characteristics match well with the capitalist system, thus it becomes useful and efficient.

The base of everything is knowledge. That knowledge can be gained either from mistakes made by the self or understanding mistakes made by others. Experience or education. To fix something which is vastly broken requires vast amounts of effort. One can either assist the effort directly themselves through protest and revolt, or they can invest in the future and ensure the lives of their children will be better than the lives which they themselves have lived.

Both have been shown to work, I am a proponent of the latter as I am against violence and promote cooperation. Often times it is the silent who make the biggest change in the world.

[reverendjeremiah]

Perhaps once must look at utility rather than ideals when dealing with the realm of realism. The end goal of all systems is essentially the same, it's the methods which are employed to get there which differ. We are animals, we rationalize, we respond to stimuli and we are often arrogant and risk averse. These characteristics match well with the capitalist system, thus it becomes useful and efficient.

None of that inherently makes capitalism the universal system for humanity. I can just as easily argue (with scintific evidence backing me) that humans have evolved with a social sense of community, caring for our elders, teamwork to ensure the success of our current society and its future offspring. I COULD say that this makes socialism the universally inherent system for humanity, but that would be just as specious of an argument as you suggesting that since greed and arrogance exists in humanity, that capitalism therefore is the natural system.
Might I also point out that utilitarianism is just another method, like capitalism and socialism is a method. Capitalism and socialism can both be utilitarian. Socailism can also be rational.

The base of everything is knowledge.

And here I thought the base of everything was materialism.

That knowledge can be gained either from mistakes made by the self or understanding mistakes made by others.

which happens in capitalism AND socialism.

Experience or education. To fix something which is vastly broken requires vast amounts of effort.

which happens in capitalism AND socialism.

One can either assist the effort directly themselves through protest and revolt, or they can invest in the future and ensure the lives of their children will be better than the lives which they themselves have lived.

which happens in capitalism AND socialism.

Both have been shown to work, I am a proponent of the latter as I am against violence and promote cooperation.

No, you promote capitalism, which is a competitive system. socialism is a cooperative system. Like I said before, you cant have both as they are mutually exclusive.

[reverendjeremiah]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDIVXuv_U...jQ&lf=plcp

[Perhaps]

I think our fundamental difference on the subject is our definitions of social equality.

Liberties are what make people equal in my opinion, not their economic status.

I found the video interesting, but it's quite clear to me that he refers to the current state of affairs as 'corporatism'. Once again, I don't like the current state of affairs, I think it's wrong, but that doesn't mean capitalism is wrong or promotes inequality, unless your talking about monetary inequality.