urge to pray - advice/help

[Epimethean]

Oh dear ...

[The Grand Nudger]

Why would an all good god exist?

[Epimethean]

Why would a god exist?

[The Grand Nudger]

Is indifference or complacency a facet of omnibenevolence?

[tackattack]

Why would an all good not have to not allow evil to exist?

Man I had some double negatives in that last bit didn't I. Still unanswered though. Why would an all good God have to dismiss all evil?

@ Epimethean - Why would a god exist? IDK, there nothing requiring Him to exist or create.


@Rhythm -
Why would an all good god exist? Well if one does exist, I'd prefer it to be all good if the alternative is all bad, but again, it's not necessary.

Is indifference or complacency a facet of omnibenevolence?
I define omnibenevolence as the desire to act benevolent to everyone. indifference would be desiring nothing as would the act of doing nothing which is complacency. I would not say that an omnibenevolent being is indifferent or acts complacent.

[The Grand Nudger]

That's cool, we'll go with that definition, omnibenevolence is a desire (and not necessarily an action). Is there a desire that your god could not act upon? Is there some good that it wishes to do that for some reason it cannot? If yes, you see where we're headed....if no..then indifference or complacence, and you would not say that an omnibenevolent being is indifferent or complacent. I'm not even addressing malice as a cause, since omnibenevolence would seem to rule that out entirely.

Classic dilemma shit and all that, you know the drill.

[passionatefool]

Why would an all good not have to not allow evil to exist?

Because then he isn't all good..probably sadistic like Mother Theresa

[brotherlylove]

No, it does not. Invoking tricksters only makes things more inexplicable, as you cannot determine what is their trickery and what is not (including your holy texts btw).

The same bible that tells us about the trickery is the same bible that tells us how to avoid it. An unknown enemy is far more effective than a known one.

"If a good god exists, Satan is limited"
There is no such thing as Satan, so that's garbage from the get-go.

"a good god exists".
Evidence?

"Therefore satan is limited"
There's alot of work you need to do to this argument before you can reach this conclusion, isn't there?

Apparently when you stated that no one could tell the difference between Gods work and Satans work, you didn't realize you were engaging into a hypothetical scenerio and that within this hypothetical Gods existence and Satans existence are assumed to be true.

As you would be unable to discern the difference between an agent of Satan and an agent of god. The bible is clearly the work of an agent of satan, out to malign god with easily dismissed fairy tales of acts he never performed, and promises he never made, all to make him look like an asshole...so that people like me would turn away, and not be saved. You, BL, are an agent of Satan. How does that taste? Again, you invoked the tricksters, and this is something that a trickster would, could, or may do (and before you respond with "the text says that demons cannot do this or that"..that verse is a product of demonic trickery..they don't want you to know what they can and can't do). Your decision to explain what is uncomfortable to you by way of imaginary beasties is childish, and presents more problems without actually answering any questions or explaining anything. Invoking "demons" as an explanation for something is intellectual laziness.

Again, an unknown enemy is more effective than a known one. If Satan wrote the bible he wouldn't have included himself in it, or any of the embarassing details of his fall from grace.

Again, if Satan does exist you would be unaware of it. You could only be completely unable to discern the difference. You might want to think about whether all the time and energy you have invested into fighting against Jesus Christ could possibly be justified. You might want to examine your reactions and see if there is any connection to reality there. When I was a nonbeliever, I thought pretty much the same things, that Christians (and anyone else who made supernatural claims) were just delusional. I didn't believe any of it was true, and therefore, I didn't waste any of my own time arguing against something I didn't even believe existed.

The reason I didn't act that way was because I wasn't truly resisting God, at least not to the point of blindly denying Him. I was open to the truth, whatever it was, and if that included Jesus, so be it. I didn't think it was likely to be what any of the religions said it was, but I wasn't closed minded to potential possibility of it.

What I think is that you probably have more than a clue about the existence of God. I am willing to wager that you have received signs from God that you are in denial about and try to explain away or just simply suppress. I've met many atheists for instance that have had out of body experiences but still deny they have a spirit. There is an atheist I am speaking to in this very forum who knows he has a spirit and he still denies there is a God. Even if you had a vision of Jesus in all His glory you would probably still deny Him, because this isn't really about evidence. It is about a rebellion against Gods authority and not wanting to give up the things that would have to change to submit to His Lordship.

---

If a good god exists, we will be judged on our works rather than on something as trivial as believing in his existence
a good god exists.
therefore, we will be judg.... oh wait. Modus tollens.

We're judged for all the sin we have committed, such as lying, cheating, stealing etc, in which unbelief is simply one. It is what your salvation hinges upon, but sin itself is the reason for the judgement. Scripture says our good works are filthy rags before a Holy God..they don't justify us. It's only our faith that is counted to us as righteousness.

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If an all-good god exists (all good as in could not be evil or allow evil to exist) then there would be no Satan. Unless, of course, this god isn't all powerful.

Or God allows for evil because all things being equal, creatures that can freely choose between good and evil are preferrable to those who cannot.

[The Grand Nudger]

The same bible that tells us about the trickery is the same bible that tells us how to avoid it. An unknown enemy is far more effective than a known one.

The enemy is still unknown, those precautions were actually recommended by demons as a trap.

Apparently when you stated that no one could tell the difference between Gods work and Satans work, you didn't realize you were engaging into a hypothetical scenerio and that within this hypothetical Gods existence and Satans existence are assumed to be true.

And? Imagine a hydra is coming into your house to steal the blue M&M's....

Again, an unknown enemy is more effective than a known one. If Satan wrote the bible he wouldn't have included himself in it, or any of the embarassing details of his fall from grace.

Sure he would, to give you the impression that he is weak or capable of being defeated, which he is not. That's how trickster gods work, they trick you. How hard is this to understand?

Again, if Satan does exist you would be unaware of it. You could only be completely unable to discern the difference. You might want to think about whether all the time and energy you have invested into fighting against Jesus Christ could possibly be justified. You might want to examine your reactions and see if there is any connection to reality there. When I was a nonbeliever, I thought pretty much the same things, that Christians (and anyone else who made supernatural claims) were just delusional. I didn't believe any of it was true, and therefore, I didn't waste any of my own time arguing against something I didn't even believe existed.

How then, might I ask, are you aware of Satan's existence in light of the claim that you opened this bit with? Try not to shoot your own feet when you aim at me. Fighting against Jesus Christ? I'm ridiculing your fairy tale, there's nothing to fight. It's his flock that I have issue with.

My reactions to what, christianity? My reaction to christianity is that there is no connection to reality there..... Maybe you shouldn't waste your time trying to convince people that fairies exist eh? At what point did you lose your handle on that, since you seemed to have grasped it in the past?

The reason I didn't act that way was because I wasn't truly resisting God, at least not to the point of blindly denying Him. I was open to the truth, whatever it was, and if that included Jesus, so be it. I didn't think it was likely to be what any of the religions said it was, but I wasn't closed minded to potential possibility of it.

Neither am I, and again, if your fairy does exist I still don't want anything to do with it, because it disgusts me.

What I think is that you probably have more than a clue about the existence of God. I am willing to wager that you have received signs from God that you are in denial about and try to explain away or just simply suppress.

You;re right on that count, I do have more than a clue, which is why I'm an atheist. Is that your wager? Next time you consider making a wager, don't, you don't have any talent for it.

I've met many atheists for instance that have had out of body experiences but still deny they have a spirit. There is an atheist I am speaking to in this very forum who knows he has a spirit and he still denies there is a God.

Ive met many atheists who believe in magic as well, and? Spirit does not equal god, one can be an atheist and believe in spirits (though if he;s claiming knowledge, it would be nice to see his evidence).

Even if you had a vision of Jesus in all His glory you would probably still deny Him, because this isn't really about evidence.

Visions are evidence now? I was unaware. That being said, if I had a "vision" of jesus it wouldn't change my opinion of jesus one bit. Except, of course, if in that vision Jesus explained to me exactly how badly you christians botched his story.

It is about a rebellion against Gods authority and not wanting to give up the things that would have to change to submit to His Lordship

There is no such god, and there is no such authority. What exactly do you think I would have to change btw? I'm a married father of 4 that provides for most of my family either completely or partially, I have never been charged with of or convicted of any crime, I treat people around me fairly and kindly.....you're just a fundie douchebag attempting to play god and pass judgement on someone you've never met. Go fuck yourself.

[genkaus]

Disclaimer: The following arguments are presented with the assumption that god and Satan are real (which they are not), the subject being "could Satan have been the author of the bible in that case?"

Again, an unknown enemy is more effective than a known one. If Satan wrote the bible he wouldn't have included himself in it, or any of the embarassing details of his fall from grace.

An underestimated enemy is far worse than either. If you don't know the enemy, you can keep on building your defenses to counter any level of strength. But if you know the enemy and have underestimated him, then he has the advantage of knowing that you are not as secure as you think.

That is why Satan included himself in the bible, presenting himself as a weak and ineffectual fallen angel. He wants you to feel safe in believing you have god's protection when you don't.

We're judged for all the sin we have committed, such as lying, cheating, stealing etc, in which unbelief is simply one. It is what your salvation hinges upon, but sin itself is the reason for the judgement. Scripture says our good works are filthy rags before a Holy God..they don't justify us. It's only our faith that is counted to us as righteousness.

That is exactly what Satan wants you to think. He wants you to think that you are supposed to believe the bible without questioning it, so when you go to hell, he can say "Gotcha".

He wants you to think that unbelief is a sin. He added the other, more obvious sins along with it because lies are more palatable when accompanied partly by truth.

He wants you to think that to god, your good deeds have the value equivalent of dirty rags, so that you'd think that spreading the "message of god" is more important than actually doing good deeds. He wants you to think that your sins are erased simply by having faith and accepting JC, so that you wouldn't actually work to erase your sins and then you will go straight to hell into his waiting arms.

Imagine if a being like god actually existed, what would he be like. He wouldn't care about people believing in him, because he doesn't need others to validate his existence. He wouldn't care about spending eternity listening to praises of his glory, he'd know how awesome he is. He wouldn't care if people followed arbitrary rules he might or might not have made up just because they believe he did. He'd want people to make up their own fucking minds about things rather than taking his word for it and if they came to a different conclusion, he wouldn't penalize them for it.

A mediocre mind seeks to control and demands obedience from other minds, where as an extraordinary mind seeks company of equivalent measure. If there is a god, the only thing certain is that he'd be fucking lonely. Maybe that's why he created humans - in the hopes that eventually there might be someone out of that species he could hold an interesting conversation with. Someone who would possibly make him say "Huh, I never thought of it like that". If so, he'd definitely not want any fundies in heaven because the only things they say is already laid out in a bible - a book written specifically to screw him over.