Can bible really be interpreted as if there is no torment but you cease to exist

[Doubting Thomas]

1. Hell is a place, so to speak, but not what we usually think of a place being. It is not on earth, and neither is heaven. It is spiritual, meaning you won't have a body to burn or a physical brain to think with. Your spirit will be in torment because you missed Christ when he was staring you in the face.

Why would my soul be in torment for missing Jesus when I spent my entire life without him around?

And seriously, your idea that atheists "want" to go to Hell after death is just plain ludicrous. All I want from death is eternal oblivion, to cease to exist any more. And I'm sure that's what I'll get.

I'm sure you get comfort from your idea of Heaven & Hell, but unless you have a shred of evidence that what you're saying is true, don't try to convince anyone else of it.

[phurgawtin]

Its irrelevant what an atheist wants after death. We've come to terms with reality, and knowing that this is the only life we will ever get makes every minute of it ever so sweeter. Life is seriously fucking beautiful.

[Aardverk]

1. Hell is a place, so to speak, but not what we usually think of a place being. It is not on earth, and neither is heaven. It is spiritual, meaning you won't have a body to burn or a physical brain to think with. Your spirit will be in torment because you missed Christ when he was staring you in the face.

2. Mark 12:25 says "When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage." We will have been washed clean by Jesus' sacrifice so we won't have the desire to sin. Heaven is not a place in the clouds or another planet with natural law restrictions or body limitations like disease. Philippians 3:20-21 says "But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body." Adds Revelation 21:4, "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." Heaven is a not a party to drink at, but a place we will be perfectly happy fellowshiping with others and being with God. Imagine the feeling you had when you were first engaged or married (or what it might be) and when or if you held your first child in your arms. Heaven will be joy like that, but infinitely more powerful and unending.

Thank you 'Undeceived' for your attempt to answer this most difficult question. Unfortunately you avoided my first question. I asked why you thought heaven was real but hell was only in your head. You didn't cover that. 'Spiritual' just means 'imaginary' to most of us.

Your second answer was mystifying. If you good Christians all end up with a "glorious body" like Jesus Christ's that presumably means a physical body because Jesus went up to heaven with a human body according to the bible. So, heaven must be a physical place for those billions of glorious bodies to reside and admire each other. Well, I admire glorious bodies, don't you? Are you quite sure sex is banned? No drink either? Jesus turned water into wine so surely he can manage a bit more booze to keep people happy? No TV? How about music? Debating societies perhaps? Or will we have all the answers and not need to think about anything?

That still leaves me with my original query - what on earth, sorry, what in heaven are YOU going to do for an E T E R N I T Y. An eternity is a hell of a long time. Feeling happy, like when you first hold your child (good example) can not possibly last unless we, sorry, unless you have most of your brains removed to stop you being bored out of your minds within a week. Is that why it is only Christians going there?

No, it doesn't really make sense does it 'Undeceived'? Our brains, well most of us here anyway, are active, productive, enquiring things that we enjoy using. The idea of sitting around with a happy smile on my face for an E T E R N I T Y sounds absolutely awful. It sounds more like a hell to me. Are you sure you've got it the right way around? Do you really want to be brain dead with a silly grin for an E T E R N I T Y?

No, you've let me down 'Undeceived'. Does any other 'believer' want to offer their view of heaven? This view obviously makes no sense at all. If that's heaven, I certainly don't want to go. Captain Stormfield's heaven sounds far more likely to me. Do read it; it's only a short story.

[Epimethean]

You didn't read the bulletin? They sing the extended version of "Light My Fire." The holy zippo fucking loves that song.

[Abracadabra]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I'd just like to agree with those who have said that it's senseless to try to make sense of ancient nonsense.

Do you still sit around trying to justify Greek Mythology?

If not, then why sit around trying to justify Hebrew Mythology?

Why even bother?

If there were any truth to any of these ancient religions you wouldn't need to sit around banging your head against the wall constantly trying to justify the absurdities contained in them. They'd automatically make sense because they would have been the inspired word of a truly benevolent all-wise God.

The mere fact that people need to continually make apologies and excuses for these fables is proof-positive right there that they are nothing more than idiotic man-made fables.

[Epimethean]

Do you still sit around trying to justify witchcraft?

If so, then why attempt to debunk xtianity or any other religion?

If there were any truth to any religion you wouldn't need to sit around banging your head against the wall constantly trying to justify the absurdities contained in them.

[Abracadabra]

Do you still sit around trying to justify witchcraft?

I don't. That's other people's misconception.

All I do is request respect for my beliefs in witchcraft.

Big difference.

If so, then why attempt to debunk xtianity or any other religion?

If there were any truth to any religion you wouldn't need to sit around banging your head against the wall constantly trying to justify the absurdities contained in them.

I don't sit around banging my head against the wall constantly trying to justify witchcraft to myself. I personally don't have any problems with it. It's totally compatible with my scientific view of the world. And I've been a scientist my entire life, so I understand quite a bit about science. There simply is no conflict between science and witchcraft as I view either of them.

As far as other religions are concerned, I often comment on Christianity in particular for three very good reasons:

1. The religion itself accuses ALL mankind of rejecting its God.
Well, I'm a member of mankind so this entitles me to have an opinion with respect to those charges. And my opinion is that they are totally unfounded and without merit.

2. I was born and raised as a Christian and almost became a preacher at one point.
So I'm highly educated concerning the Hebrew fables and therefore highly qualified to speak to the absurdities contained within.

3. Christian proselytizers and evangelists accuse me of rejecting their God and Jesus just as much as they badger atheists.
In fact, if they knew I was into witchcraft they'd probably even be worse, either that or they'd just chalk me up to having already "sold my soul to Satan".

None the less, I have reasons to speak out against their accusations toward me.

Hey, I'm more than willing to respect any Christian who can respect me for my choice of spirituality.

It's really the hardcore proselytizers and over-zealous evangelists that bug me. I have no problem with a "Christian" who just claims to have a personal walk with Jesus.

I'd be more than open to worshiping "God" side-by-side with any Christian as long at they can respect me for worshiping a Moon Goddess, I'll be more than happy to respect them for worshiping Jesus.

They can believe in Jesus for themselves all they want. And they can even think that my Moon Goddess is utterly silly. As long as they respect me for worshiping Her that's all I ask. I don't require that they believe in Her. And they shouldn't require that I believe in Jesus.

Then we'd be all set.

And if an atheist wants to join in and just stand in awe of the universe for what they see it to be, that's fine too.

I see no reason why we can't all respect each other for having totally different views of life.

What's wrong with that?

~~~~

I wouldn't speak a word against Christianity
if people weren't constantly insinuating that
anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus is choosing
to reject all that's good and holy and sealing their
own fate in an obviously deserved eternal damnation.
As soon as the ignorance of that kind of relentless badgering ceases,
I'll be more than happy to cease reacting to it.

~

[The Grand Nudger]

Your "scientific view of the world"...as a long-time scientist is compatible with witchcraft? You should start a thread about that. We have a sub-forum for it.

Said christians don't want you worshipping your moon goddess for exactly the same reasons that you are worshipping a moon goddess. If you want them to just accept you as you are and respect your beliefs..wouldn't you have to accept them as they are and respect their beliefs? Including the belief that your an evil godless sinner that sold your soul? I see no room for one believer in fairy tales to criticize another on their belief in fairy tales. The heat your posts get might be a result of that eh?

[Undeceived]

Unless you have a shred of evidence that what you're saying is true, don't try to convince anyone else of it.

If you stood on the railroad tracks with your friends, and knew a train was coming but didn't have evidence, would you warn them or not? And there is evidence in the forms of moral conscience, the historical and scientific accuracy of the Bible, third-party documents backing the Bible, signs of intelligent design, human psychology, logic and a number of other points. In case you missed it, evolution (or Atheism for that matter) has no direct evidence either.

Do you really want to be brain dead with a silly grin for an E T E R N I T Y?

It sounds like you're having trouble grasping eternity, and so do I. It's beyond the human scope of mind. We can't expect to have the same human emotions or imperfect body we had here on earth. Quite likely we'll be made of substance entirely different from the combination of protons, neutrons and electrons. Heaven's humanly-imagined concept being illogical to other humans sidesteps the real question-- Does God exist, and if he does, is he a personal, loving God who deserves my attention? And in conjuncture, did Jesus really rise from the dead? All historical documents, artifacts, locations and knowledge of the time between AD 0 and AD 33 point to Jesus living, dying, the body vacating the tomb, and people believing him resurrected. There are no contradictions to these events. If we were truly honest, we’d say there is more testable/observable/demonstrative scientific evidence in favor of Jesus Christ than for evolution.

I listed some reasoning for God’s existence in my other response above. Is He personal and loving? Well logically He wouldn’t create us for the sole purpose of hating us and wreaking havoc. If He wanted a little fun, He could do it in larger, more entertaining ways than a natural disaster on speck-sized people every now and then (and if you argue He has different notions of fun than us, why hold Him to ours when it comes to His 'cruel' actions in the Old Testament?). We also have personality, as He has personality. A creator (once we’ve determined he exists) must be more complex and more-everything than His creation. If we can love, He can love more. We live and interact, He obviously made us able for a reason. He could have dropped us all on earth, unthinking and uncommunicative, and sent a giant asteroid at us on day one. Instead, most of our lives are fairly pleasant, and the Bible (this God’s messaging device) explains why it isn’t pleasant all the time. If we make God out to be evil and cruel some of the time and conveniently indifferent all other times, what have we done? We’ve used our own logic to conceptualize what God might be like, and made him out to be as illogical as we can. You can’t use the wrench and eat it at the same time. We can’t make a logic statement about how illogical our creator is when He gave us our logic, and logically producing an illogical image based on the beginning logic (wherever it comes from) is simply not feasible.

Anti-theists try to blow this over by calling God contradictory, and therefore He was probably a fabrication. But this is nothing more than a “seems to me” argument. As said before, our personal God of the Bible would be too complex to analyze with our created, less-complex brains. A dog doesn’t understand 1% of what a human does, and a robot even less. Also, if the writers thought the God they portrayed was not logical, they would have rewrote Him to make Him seem more so. Why would fabricators risk writing an Old Testament judgment that would turn away thousands of readers? If they were really after money they would have made God as perfect and as loving as possible, and throw in a reward like a planet of our own when we get to heaven. Instead, they faced martyrdom because they so firmly believed the God they wrote. God exists, He is personal, and He lovingly sent Jesus His Son to die in place of us.

[The Grand Nudger]

If you stood on the railroad tracks with your friends, and knew a train was coming but didn't have evidence, would you warn them or not?

So, you're standing by a track, and you know a train is coming.without having any evidence...are you suggesting that my friends should take heed of my psychic predictions that a train is coming?

And there is evidence in the forms of moral conscience, the historical and scientific accuracy of the Bible, third-party documents backing the Bible, signs of intelligent design, human psychology, logic and a number of other points. In case you missed it, evolution (or Atheism for that matter) has no direct evidence either.

There is no such evidence. Both atheism and evolution do have direct evidence, try again.

It sounds like you're having trouble grasping eternity, and so do I. It's beyond the human scope of mind. We can't expect to have the same human emotions or imperfect body we had here on earth. Quite likely we'll be made of substance entirely different from the combination of protons, neutrons and electrons. Heaven's humanly-imagined concept being illogical to other humans sidesteps the real question-- Does God exist, and if he does, is he a personal, loving God who deserves my attention? And in conjuncture, did Jesus really rise from the dead? All historical documents, artifacts, locations and knowledge of the time between AD 0 and AD 33 point to Jesus living, dying, the body vacating the tomb, and people believing him resurrected. There are no contradictions to these events. If we were truly honest, we’d say there is more testable/observable/demonstrative scientific evidence in favor of Jesus Christ than for evolution.

If we were truly honest, we wouldn't be peddling horseshit.

I listed some reasoning for God’s existence in my other response above. Is He personal and loving? Well logically He wouldn’t create us for the sole purpose of hating us and wreaking havoc. If He wanted a little fun, He could do it in larger, more entertaining ways than a natural disaster on speck-sized people every now and then (and if you argue He has different notions of fun than us, why hold Him to ours when it comes to His 'cruel' actions in the Old Testament?). We also have personality, as He has personality. A creator (once we’ve determined he exists) must be more complex and more-everything than His creation. If we can love, He can love more. We live and interact, He obviously made us able for a reason. He could have dropped us all on earth, unthinking and uncommunicative, and sent a giant asteroid at us on day one. Instead, most of our lives are fairly pleasant, and the Bible (this God’s messaging device) explains why it isn’t pleasant all the time. If we make God out to be evil and cruel some of the time and conveniently indifferent all other times, what have we done? We’ve used our own logic to conceptualize what God might be like, and made him out to be as illogical as we can. You can’t use the wrench and eat it at the same time. We can’t make a logic statement about how illogical our creator is when He gave us our logic, and logically producing an illogical image based on the beginning logic (wherever it comes from) is simply not feasible.

Care to demonstrate the veracity of any of the claims made herein?

Anti-theists try to blow this over by calling God contradictory, and therefore He was probably a fabrication. But this is nothing more than a “seems to me” argument. As said before, our personal God of the Bible would be too complex to analyze with our created, less-complex brains. A dog doesn’t understand 1% of what a human does, and a robot even less. Also, if the writers thought the God they portrayed was not logical, they would have rewrote Him to make Him seem more so. Why would fabricators risk writing an Old Testament judgment that would turn away thousands of readers? If they were really after money they would have made God as perfect and as loving as possible, and throw in a reward like a planet of our own when we get to heaven. Instead, they faced martyrdom because they so firmly believed the God they wrote. God exists, He is personal, and He lovingly sent Jesus His Son to die in place of us.

Probably a fabrication..lol, no, definitely is a fabrication. It's not a "seems to me" argument, it's an "all available evidence leads us to the conclusion that" argument. The writers wrote about a god with concepts that seemed perfectly reasonable to them. This might be a huge shock, but thousands of years ago, people believed tons of silly shit, and having silly shit in your silly book didn't warrant a re-write. God exists? Great, evidence? He is personal? Excellent, evidence? He sent his son? Sounds fantastic, evidence?