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(February 7, 2012 at 9:02 am)Rokcet Scientist Wrote:
(February 7, 2012 at 5:30 am)tackattack Wrote: Until we can breack down more of those , "us" and "them" walls, we have a long way, as a society, to go.
How do you propose to ignore fundamental differences of opinion? If "us" and "them" are different, then we are different. That's reality. God forbid (in a manner of speaking...) that we would not have fundamental differences. It would be a very boring world: for one thing we wouldn't be debating this here and now...
The differences of opinion between theists and atheists are of course so fundamental that Mark Twain's motto applies: "east is east and west is west, and never the twain shall meet."
There's nothing wrong with that unless you deny that reality instead of accepting it.
I enjoy sharing a differing opinion. It challenges established, possibly biased, beliefs. It encourages personal growth. It doesn't have to be shared spitefully or hatefully though, which was I believe the point of the OP. To answer your question we should ealize that we're all different and not ignore those differences. Ignoring something is to deny it's existence and if emphatically a way to automatically show disrespect. Yes you and I as an atheist and a theist have a fundamental difference in beliefs. You probably feel my beliefs are delusional because my beliefs seem irrational to your worldview. I feel your beliefs are incomplete and you're denying evidence that is clear from my worldview. I however have a fundmental respect for you as a human and for your right to hold whatever belief you like. Assuming, generalizing and ignoring are just nicer ways to disrespect someone who has a different opinion that you.
See, I don't think it's about finding a common ground on 2 opposite beliefs, I believe it's about showing a fundamental respect for each of us as individuals. With all respect to Mr. twain, I think civility is meeting there on mutual respect, where east and west can meet, share a beer and laugh at themselves.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
February 8, 2012 at 2:43 am (This post was last modified: February 8, 2012 at 2:44 am by Oldandeasilyconfused.)
Allan Shore: " Denny, aren't you afraid you'll die without anyone ever having really known you?"
Denny Crane: "Hell no! I want them to know MY version!"
I have never joined this or any other forum to understand or be understood. I expect to be judged by my behaviour,which how I judge others.
In reality, I tend to be a lot more conciliatory. Here I simply do not suffer fools because I don't need to.
Mystic ,of course you may be as self righteously disgusted as you like,that is your right.It is my right to ignore you or suggest you pull your head in.
February 8, 2012 at 3:04 am (This post was last modified: February 8, 2012 at 3:05 am by Rokcet Scientist.)
(February 8, 2012 at 2:34 am)tackattack Wrote: I don't think it's about finding a common ground on 2 opposite beliefs, I believe it's about showing a fundamental respect for each of us as individuals. With all respect to Mr. twain, I think civility is meeting there on mutual respect, where east and west can meet, share a beer and laugh at themselves.
Respect is one of the most abused words. Respect needs to be earned. Which means you have to do something commendable to deserve respect. Simply being an individual does not automatically mean you deserve or are entitled to respect at all!
Being religious means you can't think straight. I have no respect for people who can't think straight. I pity them. Often I even loathe them. Quite the contrary of respect!
Don't mix up 'respect' with basic 'manners'.
'Bros in da hood' demanding 'respect' are de facto aggressively terrorizing the one they say that to. What they really mean is "fear me and serve me, or I will bite your head off".
With respect it's got nothing whatsoever to do.
I'm not confusing the two. I know a lot of people who also feel it needs to be earned by default. I have certain idealistic hopes for society though. I belive we should all have the right to believe what we like, live how we like (so as it's not affecting anyone else negatively), and love who we want. I try and show deference to those rights to everyone, which is basic repsect to me. Of course some are more respected than others, because they've earned more. My base value isn't 0 respect though.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
Just what IS this "respect". What is it's value? How is it measured? How is it displayed? Is it being confused with basic civility? Just how is it being used as a weapon to intimidate those who wish to be seen as civil?
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
(February 8, 2012 at 3:18 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Just what IS this "respect". What is it's value? How is it measured? How is it displayed? Is it being confused with basic civility?
Tacky just demonstrated that.
Quote:Just how is it being used as a weapon to intimidate those who wish to be seen as civil?
By the threatening tone and stance, clearly intimidation.
Just go to da hood and find out for yourself, bro.
(February 8, 2012 at 3:14 am)tackattack Wrote: I'm not confusing the two. I know a lot of people who also feel it needs to be earned by default. I have certain idealistic hopes for society though. I belive we should all have the right to believe what we like, live how we like (so as it's not affecting anyone else negatively), and love who we want. I try and show deference to those rights to everyone, which is basic repsect to me. Of course some are more respected than others, because they've earned more. My base value isn't 0 respect though.
Respecting someone's right to make a choice does not mean that you have to respect the choice itself.
(February 8, 2012 at 3:04 am)Rokcet Scientist Wrote: Respect is one of the most abused words. Respect needs to be earned.
Wouldn't that ultimately depend on who's giving out the respect?
I tend to respect everyone as a default. (even though it may not be readily apparent to them)
They don't need to earn my respect, it's automatically given to them freely.
Kind of like Jesus supposedly offers grace freely.
All they have to do is accept it.
However, my respect can be lost.
And when it is lost, then it will need to be 'earned' back.
Christian - A moron who believes that an all-benevolent God can simultaneously be a hateful jealous male-chauvinistic pig. Wiccan - The epitome of cerebral evolution having mastered the magical powers of the universe and is in eternal harmony with the mind of God. Atheist - An ill-defined term that means something different to everyone who uses it.
~~~~~ Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. Clearly Jesus (a fictitious character or otherwise) will forgive people if they merely know not what they do For the Bible Tells us so!
February 8, 2012 at 5:54 am (This post was last modified: February 8, 2012 at 5:56 am by Rokcet Scientist.)
(February 8, 2012 at 5:09 am)Abracadabra Wrote:
(February 8, 2012 at 3:04 am)Rokcet Scientist Wrote: Respect is one of the most abused words. Respect needs to be earned.
Wouldn't that ultimately depend on who's giving out the respect?
Yes. Respect is a personal, individual thing.
Quote:I tend to respect everyone as a default. (even though it may not be readily apparent to them)
They don't need to earn my respect, it's automatically given to them freely.
Kind of like Jesus supposedly offers grace freely.
All they have to do is accept it.
However, my respect can be lost.
And when it is lost, then it will need to be 'earned' back.
Baseless respect is worthless. Fake. Hypocritical. Untruthful.
Respect is not something you have an automatic right to. Being treated with civility and basic manners is something you have an automatic right to (unless prior fuck-ups). Not respect.
February 8, 2012 at 7:05 am (This post was last modified: February 8, 2012 at 7:13 am by Whateverist.)
We don't all seem to be using the word "respect" is the same way. It doesn't have to mean to "esteem highly".
I don't have to agree with someone's choices or feel they were the best choices possible to "respect" that they made the best choices they could from their point of view.
Someone who has grown up in a culture of praying and interpreting events in terms of God, is not necessarily being stupid or spineless when they don't accept rational arguments for rejecting gods. I think most of us recognize that we don't actually have conclusive evidence that God doesn't exist, we just demand a good reason for thinking He does in the first place. It is easy to overlook how deeply these sorts of beliefs that are inculcated from birth can go. You have to realize that the believer has assembled the world around these core beliefs. So it isn't so easy to remove the 'god delusion' as it would be for those of us in whom that belief never metastasized.
In evaluating the words and actions of believers I think it is reasonable to take into account context. As has been pointed out, I don't have to agree with them or think they make good points. For the most part, I respect someone if I think they are reasoning honestly given their core beliefs and acting with good intentions even if I wouldn't want the outcome. What really interests me is how profound, subtle and insightful the thinking of some theists can be. Bill Moyers is someone I'd love to have a chat with.
Now this forum is a special case. Anyone who wonders in here doesn't get to be completely oblivious to where they are and they have to show respect to those of us who are operating from different core beliefs than their own. If they are here to save us from our selves, they deserve what they get after they have been reminded we are not here for that. If they are here to try to understand how we can believe as we do, let those who wish to answer but rudeness is just uncalled for. Being right about god doesn't excuse poor manners. Unless we want this to be an atheists only club where you can count on preaching to the choir, we should be civil.
