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RE: Understanding/Sympathizing/forbearing people
February 10, 2012 at 10:23 am
(February 9, 2012 at 4:56 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Sure, but again, it's difficult to determine what a rational "innate right" is if we cannot demonstrate such a thing as an "innate right" in the objective sense.
I think you meant to say "demonstrate "innate property" in the objective sense".
Like I said, innate rights are the recognition given to innate characteristics of human beings.
(February 9, 2012 at 4:56 pm)Rhythm Wrote: If our definition is simply "originating in the mind" (which is one definition of innate btw) then all innate rights we could possibly conceive of are rational, aren't they?
The definition I'm using in this context is "Possessed as an essential characteristic".
(February 9, 2012 at 4:56 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Such as my innate right to eat your children. Isn't it much better to simply go with what we can show? That we have decided that there are things called rights, that we've decided what those rights are (for now, subject to revision) and that even though these rights can only be shown to exist in our minds they are useful and we should keep plugging along with them, as long as we always remember just how shaky the concept is. That thin veneer of civility bit. There's a difference between saying, "this concept is useful", and "this concept is objectively true, or exists objectively" That difference is important to me. We can rationilize rights, but to demand that something so emotional be completely rational is probably expecting a little to much from us (though obviously, I wish we could be completely rational and completely "human" at the same time...sometimes our irrationality does shine brightly in our favor)
They are, aren't they. They weren't conceived as such amusingly, nor do they always do this. I agree, very counter-intuitive, but at the end of the day we've decided that we have to protect ourselves from the tyranny of the majority somehow, and this leaves the door open to both the good and the bad, as it were.
I'm pretty sure you're being very generous with regards to our character.
(playing the devils advocate on some things is very very difficult btw, thanks for bearing with me thusfar,..lol)
I've no interest in rationalizing anything.
I didn't want to use this argument because it has the potential of leading the debate in a very different direction, but here it is anyway.
I consider the drive to be rational the essential and defining characteristic of a human being. On second thought, let's call that the essential characteristic of being a person to separate the concept of a person from simply a biological member of the human species.
Even the mentally ill, whose capacity for rationality has been greatly diminished, display the drive to be rational - to the extent they are able. The essential requirement for this quality is that the person must be alive and the person must be free to act rationally. This quality of "drive to be rational" would be both objective and demonstrable.
Hence, I think that anyone or anything that displays this characteristic should be considered a person and granted rights in accordance with the recognition, whether they be apes, dolphins or elephants. On the other hand, anyone who does not display this quality, should not be regarded as a person, whether they may genetically belong to our species or not.
On a related note, no, I would not consider babies to have this right. Though I'm not sure where I'd draw the line, since in my experience babies seem to develop this drive quite soon after birth. That still wouldn't give me the right to eat your babies. Until they become their own person, they can be considered your property and I wouldn't have any right to them. My own babies, on the other hand, might be fair game. Though not completely, because they would be under joint ownership of me and my wife.
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RE: Understanding/Sympathizing/forbearing people
February 10, 2012 at 3:16 pm
(This post was last modified: February 10, 2012 at 3:19 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
A redundant description of the requirements if ever there was one.
Referencing a drive to conform to a system created by human beings to describe how we can best ask pertinent/correctly formulated questions about our existence as the criteria for personhood is in effect saying that people are people. Nothing wrong with that, and maybe I'm misunderstanding you?
(I'm absolutely fine with that btw, for me personally, the requirement for personhood is that you be a human being, but perhaps I don't put as much value on the concept of personhood, or feel that personhood makes one all that different from a being that is not granted such a title as others.)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Understanding/Sympathizing/forbearing people
February 10, 2012 at 3:49 pm
(February 10, 2012 at 3:16 pm)Rhythm Wrote: A redundant description of the requirements if ever there was one.
Referencing a drive to conform to a system created by human beings to describe how we can best ask pertinent/correctly formulated questions about our existence as the criteria for personhood is in effect saying that people are people. Nothing wrong with that, and maybe I'm misunderstanding you?
(I'm absolutely fine with that btw, for me personally, the requirement for personhood is that you be a human being, but perhaps I don't put as much value on the concept of personhood, or feel that personhood makes one all that different from a being that is not granted such a title as others.)
I don't exactly understand what you are trying to say here. Can you be more explicit?
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RE: Understanding/Sympathizing/forbearing people
February 10, 2012 at 3:54 pm
(This post was last modified: February 10, 2012 at 3:55 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
"The drive to be rational" is a the drive to conform to a system that we, human beings, have created. As far as I'm aware, there are no other animals with systems such as logic etc. This is the sort of thing I keep mentioning when I suggest that we might be rigging the game (in other threads as well as this one, about subjects other than this one as well).
I'm attempting to remove the suspicion of bias (which is part of that drive to be rational)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Understanding/Sympathizing/forbearing people
February 10, 2012 at 7:03 pm
(February 10, 2012 at 3:54 pm)Rhythm Wrote: "The drive to be rational" is a the drive to conform to a system that we, human beings, have created. As far as I'm aware, there are no other animals with systems such as logic etc. This is the sort of thing I keep mentioning when I suggest that we might be rigging the game (in other threads as well as this one, about subjects other than this one as well).
I'm attempting to remove the suspicion of bias (which is part of that drive to be rational)
You might have a point there. I guess the suspicion of bias would be removed if in the cases where human children were raised in isolation from any other human contact and still displayed a drive to be rational (such as the cases of feral children). They need not be capable of traditional human rationality, but if they display it in some form that suited them, it would be quite convincing in removing bias.
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RE: Understanding/Sympathizing/forbearing people
February 11, 2012 at 2:36 am
People are not machines. This whole idea of comparing us to computers or mechanical processes is a PRODUCT of our environment , my friends. We, as human beings are very spiritual and important! Logic IS an essential quality, YES, but it is only ONE of the essential qualities! Emotions are of equal value to intellect when we fully examine them. Zen is the best metaphor of completeness.
You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.
There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting.
Buddha 
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RE: Understanding/Sympathizing/forbearing people
February 11, 2012 at 8:36 am
(February 11, 2012 at 2:36 am)Bgood Wrote: People are not machines. This whole idea of comparing us to computers or mechanical processes is a PRODUCT of our environment , my friends. We, as human beings are very spiritual and important! Logic IS an essential quality, YES, but it is only ONE of the essential qualities! Emotions are of equal value to intellect when we fully examine them. Zen is the best metaphor of completeness.
Once you examine your emotions, they become logical as well. Besides, like I said, the product of environment is the OS and externally installed software. The little extra that humans have is the capacity for self-installation.
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RE: Understanding/Sympathizing/forbearing people
February 11, 2012 at 9:53 am
(This post was last modified: February 11, 2012 at 9:53 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Chicken Marsala is the best metaphor for completeness. 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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