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RE: Do animals have free Will?
February 11, 2012 at 8:30 pm
(February 11, 2012 at 12:08 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Then the programmer giving the computer inputs is not doing the programming either.
The person writing the program is.
(February 11, 2012 at 12:08 pm)Rhythm Wrote: A PC can also filter what it wishes- antivirus. A self taught behavior?
No. The antivirus has to be installed externally.
(February 11, 2012 at 12:08 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Is learning self taught? I wasn't aware that it was.
Jury's out on that one. Teaching someone to learn seems counter-intuitive, doesn't it?
Perhaps it was simply an expression of your ability to think clearly and assess a situation or concept dispassionately, developed over millions of years of trial and error with an untimely death as the penalty for failure?
(February 11, 2012 at 12:08 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Along the same lines, but slightly OT. Let's imagine for a moment that we discover AI. We might give this entity personhood (maybe because we make the case that it has free will), but I've always been amused that this same event would also easily justify removing the title of person from ourselves..since we could no longer be said to be different from a machine...we prefer the former over the latter. I mention this because It's not that I disagree with your position on much of this, but because I'm skeptical of any determination of what constitutes a thought, or free will, or personhood, etc, that arises from the minds of human beings. "Our" thoughts are somehow different, "our" programming is somehow our own, everything else is inferior by comparison because we use our own characteristics as the bar. I used AI above, but when I take a look around me (at things which exist outside of my little thought experiment), it's very difficult to distinguish exactly what is doing the programming, and exactly what is exhibiting "free will" from what is not.
Upon creation of AI, either those specific machines should be given personhood, or we would see the return of human slavery. If, on the other hand, we keep being irrational and keep on insisting that humans are special and therefore have rights (sounds like us, doesn't it?), it won't be too long before we see the "Matrix" or the "Terminator" unfold before our eyes. And the machined would be justified too.
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
February 11, 2012 at 8:36 pm
(This post was last modified: February 11, 2012 at 8:38 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(February 11, 2012 at 8:30 pm)genkaus Wrote: The person writing the program is.
I don't see how we can escape "environment as a programmer" in this way.
Quote:No. The antivirus has to be installed externally.
You're sure you installed your own software, nothing came bundled from the manufacturer?
Quote:Jury's out on that one. Teaching someone to learn seems counter-intuitive, doesn't it?
Extremely yes, but counter-intuitive doesn't always mean untrue, as we've been reminded time and time again. So I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Hehehe, they just might be justified, I'd still be looking to end their silly little mechanical existences though. Go team us!
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
February 11, 2012 at 9:31 pm
(February 11, 2012 at 8:36 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I don't see how we can escape "environment as a programmer" in this way.
I would put it like this - "We've have a software installed - whether coming naturally or being installed later to create and install our own new software".
(February 11, 2012 at 8:36 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You're sure you installed your own software, nothing came bundled from the manufacturer?
The stuff that did would be like instincts.
(February 11, 2012 at 8:36 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Extremely yes, but counter-intuitive doesn't always mean untrue, as we've been reminded time and time again. So I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Probably I should have said "self-refuting". If someone doesn't know how to learn then you cannot teach him anything. If someone already knows how to learn then it is pointless to teach him how to learn.
Its the old chicken or the egg.
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
April 12, 2012 at 8:03 am
(February 10, 2012 at 3:41 am)padraic Wrote: Quote:Dogs can recognize themselves.
Available evidence shows that neither dogs nor cats can pass 'the mirror test',and are not self aware.
Quote:Animals that have passed the mirror test include:
Humans
All of the other great apes,
three kinds of Gibbons
Bonobos[5]
Chimpanzees[5][6]
Orangutans[7]
Gorillas
Bottlenose dolphins[8]
Orcas[9]
Elephants[10]
European Magpies[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test
Don't know much about the mirror test by others, what I can say is that my rotties look into a mirror and shortly figure out they are looking at themselves. They also recognize me in the mirror, if they see me appear in the mirror they will turn and look straight at me, they understand I'm behind them. Dogs are amazing creatures that do not have the respect due them for their intelligence. Maybe one day the scientific community will catch on. I've trained the same rottie to respond to commands in English, Handsign and German, I could run him through an exercise using all three languages and he would respond perfectly no matter how I mixed the languages with each exercise.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
April 12, 2012 at 8:11 am
They can smell you for starters. Dogs rely heavily on scent in many aspects. They know where you are from scent rather than sight immediately.
In what way do you mean you figure they are looking at themselves? In what way does their behaviour change from being aware the image has no scent.
The mirror test is a bit shaky to be honest, but I'd be interested to know.
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
April 12, 2012 at 8:44 am
(April 12, 2012 at 8:11 am)NoMoreFaith Wrote: They can smell you for starters. Dogs rely heavily on scent in many aspects. They know where you are from scent rather than sight immediately.
In what way do you mean you figure they are looking at themselves? In what way does their behaviour change from being aware the image has no scent.
The mirror test is a bit shaky to be honest, but I'd be interested to know.
I would agree with the scent if it took place outside and a breeze was blowing toward them from me, could be a thing to try. However in my home my scent is prevalent everywhere so they do not use that scenting aspect in the house, that is unless the wife is cooking.
After they have seen themselves the first time and try to scent for a different dog, they will stand and look at themselves every time after that until they get board, which really doesn't take a rottie long.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
April 12, 2012 at 8:53 am
Godschild Wrote:Dogs are amazing creatures that do not have the respect due them for their intelligence
Who is not giving dogs the respect they are due for their intelligence?
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
April 12, 2012 at 9:37 am
(April 12, 2012 at 8:53 am)Faith No More Wrote: Godschild Wrote:Dogs are amazing creatures that do not have the respect due them for their intelligence
Who is not giving dogs the respect they are due for their intelligence?
Michael Vick?
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
April 12, 2012 at 1:02 pm
(This post was last modified: April 12, 2012 at 1:03 pm by R-e-n-n-a-t.)
First, let's not group all animals together. They're as different from species to species as humans are compared to chimps. For example, nobody's trying to say that a rabbit is intelligent. However, some animals such as ravens or some species of dog, could easily be self-aware.
Science supports the theory that at least some species are self-aware. Right now this study is only dealing with macaques, but it shows good results.
http://news.discovery.com/animals/macaqu...imals.html
Also, psychologists do often use mirrors to test for intelligence and self-awareness. In fact, small children, who we classify as aware at some level, often fail the mirror test where many adult dogs pass it.
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
April 12, 2012 at 7:37 pm
Quote:If animals have free will, which they clearly do
Well no, other animals do not cleary have free will, nor do we know if we do. The free will/ determinism dichotomy remains one the great arguments of metaphysics.
My position: petty much psychological determinism.IE seems to me that free will may exist in some limited form,but is largely an illusion.
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