Resoning for belief in God

[fr0d0]

You mean I would have laughed at them? Or they would have succeeded in somehow brainwashing me (in your opinion)? (or both)Lol.

EvF

No, I'm guessing you're surrounded by, or seek the approval of, atheists. Is that true?

[Edwardo Piet]

There are atheists mostly on these forums yes. My family are atheist although they don't label themselves as 'atheists'.

Most people I know on the outside are 'I don't know' or 'couldn't care less', or 'don't believe think religion is stupid and couldn't care less - yet not label themselves as 'atheist'' types.

A few I know of are religious. I don't really know anyone offline I think, who labels themselves 'atheist' as I do. Although many don't actually believe in God (hence they are actually atheists).

On these forums...yeah lot of atheists here lol. It IS an atheist forum. Do I seek their approval? Not exactly. Well, I don't seek it, no. Although I'm naturally happy when I get it and I feel that I got it deservedly

'Approval' and 'being surrounded' doesn't remotely effect my 'non-belief', my atheism.

I came here already as an atheist...and I like it here. Being here hasn't made me 'more atheist' (there's no such thing anyway, either I believe in God or I don't).

So no, I don't seek approval (although I'm happy when I get it) and 'being surrounded' doesn't effect my 'non-belief', my atheism, at all. And nor does approval effect my atheism (my non-belief) when I DO get it.

Because it is obviously to me, entirely irrelevant. None of those things address the question: "Does God exist?" whatsoever.

EvF

[fr0d0]

I'm just saying it follows the pattern Keller describes. It's interesting to me because it illustrates how and/or what you have been influenced by/ what leads you to hold the rational positions in your head. Discussing etc with our peers has an influence in some form on the person we become/ beliefs we hold.

Like the cultural analogy, we come to the table with different opinions not necessarily being right or wrong because to each of us we logically substantiate those positions because we have to. To not do that would be to lie to ourselves - ultimately impossible I'd think.

The reasoning behind your standpoint is entirely the issue I think. How you reached your reasoned position is crucial. The God question is dependent upon this arrived at status.

We're all born atheist/ agnostic I think. But still we consider this stuff and arrive at a conclusion. There seems to bean awful lot of interest in it, even in places like this, that surely shouldn't be interested in such non scientific questions.

[Edwardo Piet]

But it doesn't apply to me (anyway) because I was an atheist BEFORE I came here...so being here didn't make me an atheist...because I already was one!

And the point is there is no evidence. Culture isn't gonna change that for me - unless some actual evidence is presented.

And to me personally, as I said, it doesn't apply anyway (I was an atheist before I came here).

EvF

[fr0d0]

I think you miss the point EvF. There's no evidence whatever your culture/ surroundings etc.. Just a community that naturally declares it's understanding between the group. If your group was one way, chances are you'd be that way too. It'd be very hard to buck the trend. Not impossible, but a trend nonetheless.

[Edwardo Piet]

You need some reason to believe God exists though. Everyone has their own reasons.

And I personally know that the only valid reason is evidence. Because if there's an actual valid reason to believe God exists then that would count as evidence.

And if you are addressing the question: "Does God actually exist?" what you NEED is a valid reason(s) to believe God exists. What you NEED is evidence.

And 'going with the trend' or what people believe in 'your area' or 'surroundings' is certainly NOT evidence (NE included, i.e.: a good reason(s)) - and NOT a good reason for believing in God. Regardless of whether some may think it is or not, or whether they're simply influenced by it. That doesn't stop it from not being a good reason, not being (NE included) evidence.

EvF

[fr0d0]

FFS EvF! It's not the f'in surroundings that make your reasoning, but the passed on knowledge to yourself that influences your thoughts.

Family, friends, colleagues, hero's etc.. believe one thing and naturally during the course of your life pass on these ideas to you. Commonly, a child adopts the beliefs of its parents. It's a natural process designed to increase the child's chance of survival. Wider than that social attachments have equal influence.

That, I'm saying, forms your reasoning.

That you have no religious ties proves Kellers assertion that this is true. You've adopted the stance of your surrounding influences.

[Edwardo Piet]

But my reasons are valid. My reasons are based on the fact there is no evidence of God. Unlike some people who believe without evidence (completely and utterly irrational - if there were reasons to believe something exists, it would count as evidence, if there's no evidence there's no reason to believe that something actually exists).

Of course people are influenced by the people around them, their family, their friends, their upbringing, etc.

But there are GOOD reasons. And there are BAD reasons. I don't believe there is God because there is no evidence. And the people around me wont' effect me NOW unless there's actually some evidence (or what I firmly believe to be evidence).

Of course people are influenced by their upbringing, duh. Kids are a lot more gullible for a start. They'll believe anything (look at Santa Claus (look at "God" lol )).

But these 'reasons' are certainly not necessarily on even footing. There are good reasons and bad reasons...

..and for a start - evidence is a good reason to believe faith (lack of evidence) is not. Because as I have said, if you have valid reasons to believe that something actually EXISTS - then that would count as evidence. So if you DON'T have evidence - then you must have no valid reasons (to believe that very something; actually exists).

And if you are not concerned about actual existence. And don't want reasons to believe in that something's 'actual existence' - then why do you believe it without any valid reasons? You believe without valid reasons? Well that's irrational isn't it!

EvF

[Giff]

YOu don't become an atheist because of your surroundings Fr0d0. You become and atheist by yourself, it's not like you get brainwashed like religious people do. It all come down to reasoning, logic and knowledge. We all make up our minds in the end.

[g-mark]

If you do first year psychology, they teach you your surroundings have a very large part to play in your beliefs. If you are not taugh religion as a child, you are more likely to not believe in it.