Top 10 Reasons Morality and Piety are Separate

[DeistPaladin]

OK, I want to put together a definitive thread that puts the "you can't be moral without God" to rest. Here's the top 10 reasons why morality and piety are, at best, separate.

1. Societal evidence against it

If it were true that morality required or at least were assisted by a belief in God, we would see the effect on a macro level as societies abandon religion in favor of secularism. In fact, we find the opposite is true. Dr. Gregory Paul did a study on this very subject.

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.pdf

2. Individual evidence against it

Atheists have lower rates of incarceration and divorce.

3. The scriptures aren't moral

The Bible utterly fails to deal positively with even the simplest of moral issues. Rape, slavery and genocide are all commanded, regulated and condoned by the Biblical god.

See Numbers Chapter 31 for just one example.

4. Euthephro's Dilemma

Do we say things are good because God wills them or does God will them because they are good?

If the former, this is not objective morality but a being setting rules. Saying this is what defines morality is appealing to a "might-makes-right" mentality, which is hardly a healthy basis for absolute standards of morality.

If the latter, morality then exists outside of and independent to God. That which is wrong would continue to be wrong without God.

5. The circular reasoning of defining God as good

Christians attempting to answer the above dilemma try to babble about how "goodness is grounded in the very nature of God" (WTF does that even mean?) and so that's how we know God is good because God is good.

Bare assertion meets circular reasoning in an orgy of fallacious thinking and incoherent babble.

6. "GodWillsIt" doesn't explain anything

Just saying "GodWillsIt" doesn't help us understand why something is right or wrong. It's not any more satisfying to our curiosity than when our parents told us "cause I said so" when we were children. In fact, the statement basically boils down to "cause the big man in the sky said so".

Compare this to secular answers, that say murder is wrong because it offends our innate sense of empathy and compassion which we have as social animals that form communities and depend on one another for survival? Or how about the "social contract" where we treat others and we would wish to be treated ourselves? There are far more satisfying answers that can be had without any invocation of God.

7. The "easy out" of salvation

The Christian apologizes to his imaginary friend for things he/she has done wrong. The atheist apologizes to those they have wronged and seek to set things right.

How does a religion that tells us we're all sinners and can't change that about our nature encourage us to improve ourselves? It seems rather defeatist. What is stopping you from sinning, confessing and then sinning again?

A great example of this are various "family values" Republicans who are known adulterers. Atheists laugh at their hypocrisy while Christians don't seem to understand why this is a problem. "We're all sinners" one Christian once said to me. As long as they've apologized to Jesus, it's all good, apparently.

8. Morality from the imaginary friend

Jesus is a liberal, a conservative, a capitalist, a communist, a rebel, an authoritarian, straight, gay, bi, asexual, black, white, or whatever else you want him to be. He's the ultimate Rorschach test where people see whatever they want to see, usually a glorified reflection of their own self-image.

God always wants whatever the believer wants. Saying you get your morals from your god is like saying you get your morals from your imaginary friend. All it can do is affirm and self-validate, not direct in any non-biased way.

9. Secularism provides a clearer understanding of what morality is

Take a look at the 10 Commandments in Ex chapter 20. Notice how the first four deal with obedience to Yahweh, not how we treat our fellow people?

Read through the rest of the Bible or Koran and you see that their idea of "evil" usually refers to victimless crimes of blasphemy, idolatry and apostatacy. Ultimately a religion must be concerned first and foremost with its own agenda as a viral meme and with providing moral and spiritual guidance as a secondary priority. A religion that doesn't do so will be overrun by one that does. This means a religion is more concerned about blind obedience and gaining converts much more than encouraging moral behavior. Such a conflict of interest will inevitably muddy the waters.

Secularism clears away this clutter of ancient taboos and victimless crimes to understand that morality is a question of how we should treat our fellow sentient beings. Where our actions impact other sentient beings, questions of morality apply. The issues can be complex and the answers are not always clear but secularism offers a much shorter path to good answers.

10. Appeal to consequences is a logical fallacy

Even if it WERE true that religion promoted moral behavior, it would do nothing to validate the truth of religious claims. The entire discussion is a red herring with regards to the existence of God. One suspects that the moral argument is less about proving anything and more about giving theists a false sense of moral superiority.

[kılıç_mehmet]

Well, they are not for the people who are pious.
They do not part their moral values apart from religious values.
You do. But at the end, you are all subject to a law. Laws are changing with public demand. Religious dogma, for the most part, does not.
You can ignore it, you can choose not to follow it, but you cannot change it at will, as you'd be messing with God's word.
Laws, for the most part, determine our morality today, in my opinion.

[Zen Badger]

I always wonder when the theists claim they derive their morality from their bible/quaran.

But when you point to a rather nasty part of their book they'll say"Oh no, that's a metaphor"

Where then do they derive the ability to make a judgement on whether this part is a metaphor?

Clearly then their book is not the source of their morality.

[DeistPaladin]

Laws are changing with public demand. Religious dogma, for the most part, does not.
You can ignore it, you can choose not to follow it, but you cannot change it at will, as you'd be messing with God's word.

Actually, religious laws change all the time. Christianity created an entire "New" Testament and claimed some of the "old laws" have been "fulfilled". Mormonism came out with a 3rd Testament. Islam has had only one book but how it is practiced and how its laws are interpreted vary from one country to another. Since Jesus and Muhammad never come down from Heaven to explain to us how the laws are to be interpreted and enforced, the way these religions are practiced will vary depending on whoever is at the microphone at the time.

[Voltair]

To say that most of our morality is based solely off what is the law is possible. However I would say that would include most Christian's morality as well to be fair there are many Christian's whose moral values don't emulate their religious claims.

However I know that for myself and others I do not do certain things NOT becuase they are illegal but because I think they cause unnecessary harm. I can strive/desire to act in such a way to try and make my life and others better. I don't need a cosmic being to tell me that something has value to recognize the value in of itself.

I choose not to lie for the most part because I see the value in honesty. It is not because there is a law, that God told me so, etc. I agree though a lot of people don't have a complicated morality. People also need a better education and need to be taught critical thinking skills. There are a lot of moral values that are very rational to live out.

Reciprocal Altruism is a neat idea I think.

[Freedom]

If Christianity was really true, then the world would see a marked moral difference between Christians and non-Christians. Christians would be literally superhuman because they would have the holy spirit as guide. This is not the case. The "holy spirit" is a farce.

[The Grand Nudger]

Which is precisely why they made the refinement "we are all fallen". They can smell bullshit the same as you, the difference here is that when they smell it, they cover it up, rather than throw it away. They have no choice, because they've been pointing to a pile of bullshit for far too long saying "this is god". They've become servants to their own deceit, which is what always happens, and why we have that fun little quip about tangled webs.