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RE: Militant atheism: Why it exists, and why we need it.
April 1, 2012 at 9:10 am
(April 1, 2012 at 7:12 am)Mosrhun Wrote: (March 31, 2012 at 11:48 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Thing is that atheists have no interest in changing anyone.
I am and have. Though this is never achieved through belligerence.
But as the xtians love to remind everyone (through belligerence) that we are "ALL going to burn in Hell" and variations there from this is ok with you??
Nah ...I truly don't give a tinker's cus about personal belief systems... just don't DEMAND that I follow yours.
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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RE: Militant atheism: Why it exists, and why we need it.
April 2, 2012 at 5:06 am
Belligerence ensures people hear you. It DOES mean people feel animosity to you, too...
But what's the fucking point when they ALREADY feel animosity towards you?? If you show you can be loud, while still showing restraint [let them do what they want in their private lives as long as they keep their silliness silent in public], they can't feel any WORSE. The only loss of opinion is that they start whining that you're getting in their faces.
BUT CONSIDERING THE HYPOCRISY THERE...
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RE: Militant atheism: Why it exists, and why we need it.
April 9, 2012 at 1:04 pm
(March 31, 2012 at 11:48 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Thing is that atheists have no interest in changing anyone, least of all having power over anyone. That my friend is the reserve of theists who seem to think that louder is better, that hatred is good and that shouting will turn atheists into monsters like them.
Really, atheists are only interested in the ability to think freely and not be persecuted, shot, drawn, tortured, abused, shouted at and have their children free to ask awkward questions and actually get answers other than "godidit".
The BEST de-conversion for theists?? That they actually READ their precious book/s..The words are enough to de-convert anyone!!
I've met plenty of atheists offended by the fact that I believe in god. They were very interested in changing me. Insulting me seemed to be their preferred method.
This is stupid
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RE: Militant atheism: Why it exists, and why we need it.
April 9, 2012 at 1:33 pm
If I may intrude, why are we discussing how we should act in relation to how we're treated? If we want theists to accept and trust us, why would we mimic the actions of the theists that we can't hardly stand to be around (ie. "you're going to burn in hell!")? And if we want to change the minds and beliefs of theists, why should we look at the techniques they're using to attempt to convert us? Those simply aren't working.
In my humble opinion, I feel that acting in a trustworthy, likable way is the best way to show theists that we are likable and trustworthy. Now of course that on its own isn't enough. We need to be loud and outspoken about our beliefs, in order that theists understand that we don't believe in God, and we are still good and trustworthy. Simply acting it isn't enough, they need to understand that we don't believe in God. Simply saying it isn't enough either though, because actions speak louder than words. If we want to be accepted as good moral people, we need to be outspoken about our beliefs, and act like good people at the same time.
As for deconverting theists: who here was deconverted because someone was an asshole and treated them like shit; insulting them and what not? Maybe some were, and maybe techniques like that work, I doubt it, but I'm genuinely interested in knowing if anyone here lost faith in their belief because someone got in their face and acted like a dick. So please let me know if that worked on you.
That's all just my opinion though. I haven't a lot of experience with all of it, so please let me know if you completely disagree and why.
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RE: Militant atheism: Why it exists, and why we need it.
April 9, 2012 at 3:52 pm
libalchris Wrote:In my humble opinion, I feel that acting in a trustworthy, likable way is the best way to show theists that we are likable and trustworthy. Now of course that on its own isn't enough. We need to be loud and outspoken about our beliefs, in order that theists understand that we don't believe in God, and we are still good and trustworthy. Simply acting it isn't enough, they need to understand that we don't believe in God. Simply saying it isn't enough either though, because actions speak louder than words. If we want to be accepted as good moral people, we need to be outspoken about our beliefs, and act like good people at the same time.
I agree with this. One problem I see, however, is that there will be plenty of theists that will never judge you for you. They won't be able to see past your disbelief, and no matter how you act they will assume that you're an evil baby eater. I'm not saying we should automatically treat these people like shit, but there's only so much ignorant hatred one can take from an individual.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Militant atheism: Why it exists, and why we need it.
April 9, 2012 at 4:12 pm
(April 9, 2012 at 3:52 pm)Faith No More Wrote: libalchris Wrote:In my humble opinion, I feel that acting in a trustworthy, likable way is the best way to show theists that we are likable and trustworthy. Now of course that on its own isn't enough. We need to be loud and outspoken about our beliefs, in order that theists understand that we don't believe in God, and we are still good and trustworthy. Simply acting it isn't enough, they need to understand that we don't believe in God. Simply saying it isn't enough either though, because actions speak louder than words. If we want to be accepted as good moral people, we need to be outspoken about our beliefs, and act like good people at the same time.
I agree with this. One problem I see, however, is that there will be plenty of theists that will never judge you for you. They won't be able to see past your disbelief, and no matter how you act they will assume that you're an evil baby eater. I'm not saying we should automatically treat these people like shit, but there's only so much ignorant hatred one can take from an individual.
Agreed. I'm definitely not trying to say that intolerance should be tolerated. I understand that some people simply will never be tolerant of atheists, and neither should we tolerate their intolerance
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RE: Militant atheism: Why it exists, and why we need it.
April 9, 2012 at 11:58 pm
(April 2, 2012 at 5:06 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: Belligerence ensures people hear you. It DOES mean people feel animosity to you, too...
But what's the fucking point when they ALREADY feel animosity towards you?? If you show you can be loud, while still showing restraint [let them do what they want in their private lives as long as they keep their silliness silent in public], they can't feel any WORSE. The only loss of opinion is that they start whining that you're getting in their faces.
BUT CONSIDERING THE HYPOCRISY THERE...
Well, they don't, unless you go up to them and start arguing for, perhaps no good reason.
Besides, religion is quite subjective, there isn't really much to be agreed on both sides of any atheist-theist debate.
Like I can sit all day out there, and argue about politics, but I do not *argue* about religion, I only comment on religion, by examining it's tenets of faith, or mythology. You on the other hand think that you're gonna save humanity by being belligerent as an atheist.
Pffft..I think that you really lack a purpose in life, friend.
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RE: Militant atheism: Why it exists, and why we need it.
April 10, 2012 at 7:28 am
(April 9, 2012 at 11:58 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: (April 2, 2012 at 5:06 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: Belligerence ensures people hear you. It DOES mean people feel animosity to you, too...
But what's the fucking point when they ALREADY feel animosity towards you?? If you show you can be loud, while still showing restraint [let them do what they want in their private lives as long as they keep their silliness silent in public], they can't feel any WORSE. The only loss of opinion is that they start whining that you're getting in their faces.
BUT CONSIDERING THE HYPOCRISY THERE...
Well, they don't, unless you go up to them and start arguing for, perhaps no good reason.
Besides, religion is quite subjective, there isn't really much to be agreed on both sides of any atheist-theist debate.
Like I can sit all day out there, and argue about politics, but I do not *argue* about religion, I only comment on religion, by examining it's tenets of faith, or mythology. You on the other hand think that you're gonna save humanity by being belligerent as an atheist.
Pffft..I think that you really lack a purpose in life, friend.
Saving humanity is not enough of a purpose?
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RE: Militant atheism: Why it exists, and why we need it.
April 14, 2012 at 6:54 am
(This post was last modified: April 14, 2012 at 6:57 am by Creed of Heresy.)
(April 9, 2012 at 11:58 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: (April 2, 2012 at 5:06 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: Belligerence ensures people hear you. It DOES mean people feel animosity to you, too...
But what's the fucking point when they ALREADY feel animosity towards you?? If you show you can be loud, while still showing restraint [let them do what they want in their private lives as long as they keep their silliness silent in public], they can't feel any WORSE. The only loss of opinion is that they start whining that you're getting in their faces.
BUT CONSIDERING THE HYPOCRISY THERE...
Well, they don't, unless you go up to them and start arguing for, perhaps no good reason.
Besides, religion is quite subjective, there isn't really much to be agreed on both sides of any atheist-theist debate.
Like I can sit all day out there, and argue about politics, but I do not *argue* about religion, I only comment on religion, by examining it's tenets of faith, or mythology. You on the other hand think that you're gonna save humanity by being belligerent as an atheist.
Pffft..I think that you really lack a purpose in life, friend.
If you're going to bring up semantics like "purposes in life," then ho damn you'd better be ready to have a discussion that will last weeks. I'll just take that as you using mind-numbingly dull rhetoric to make yourself sound like you're a real "tell it like it is" kinda guy, and just simply reply to it with the following:
If you have such an amazing purpose in life then why the fuck is your name not in the news every day? Either you're the President of the US or at least of some small third-world country somewhere or you're a messiah, or otherwise whatever silly purpose you have that you think is so important in comparison to mine [the only way you could make such a claim is if you yourself are confident your own purpose is much the greater] really isn't, so why don't you climb down off that pedestal you climbed up on, hm?
My point for the OP was largely made in frustration but it is not something I merely let pop into my head, either. Clearly some of the theists have been met with atheists who simply want to deride them for being a theist. This seems to cause problems for them. But human nature is often that the one who makes the most sense will deride the one who is sounding like an ass. Theism whether you like it or not is basically saying you believe shit that has no evidence to support it other than hearsay. In ANY other matter other than religion when someone says "I believe what this guy says just because he said it," we think they're a gullible idiot. The moment we start talking about invisible bearded fuckers in the sky who are obsessed with small clans of people, suddenly we're in "respect what you're saying" territory. At least that's what people EXPECT, anyway.
You believe in fairy tales and you're a grown adult. Expect derision from people who stopped believing in the equivalent of Santa Claus and the Tooth Tairy many years ago. I'm not saying that to be a dick; I'm saying it as a genuine advisory.
Personally if I say something stupid I damn sure hope people will deride me for it because it'll educate me to make sure I don't make an ass out of myself. It's why despite what Mehmet said, I don't hate him or even dislike him [though the above wording will make it sound like it]. If I hated everyone who derided something stupid I said, I would never have any hope in hell of having ANY kind of intellectual discourse with friends, ever.
Shit, if I didn't get derided for saying stupid shit, I'd still be a christian. But people pointing out the silliness in what I believed and doing it bluntly and without being gentle and ultimately condescending is a large part of what woke me up to all the inconsistencies and logical fallacies within the bible.
Long story short; if you don't like getting your feelings hurt, then stop believing in fairy tales. Don't even lie to people about your beliefs, either. Either come to terms with the fact that prostration to mythical unprovable entities will get you some measure of derision from people who don't believe in that, or realize WHY you're being made fun of, and throw off the superstition. It's as simple as that.
Meanwhile I am going to keep being a dick to people who claim their religion is the "correct" one and who can't keep silent about their delusions. I don't inquire peoples' beliefs; they HAVE to tell me theirs of their own accord. Your average normal quiet Christian I have no problem with. Your average normal quiet muslim I have no problem with. Your average covetous jew? No problem with them [except they refuse to give me their bags of jewgold *lol*]. But the ones who are loud? Well, I used to be a metal singer: I can be much fucking louder than they can.
EDIT: Tl;dr or tr;dgtp (too rambling; didn't get the point) ; Militant atheism should not be used in constant aggression, only "defensively" or reactionary. Otherwise we can be calm about it.
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Militant atheism: Why it exists, and why we need it.
April 14, 2012 at 10:48 am
What did the most in deconverting me was speaking with atheists that showed that you can be atheist and be a good person. Christians raise their kids to be scared shitless if they stop believing, therefore it's natural to be fearful of questioning yourself and how you've been raised to believe. Once I realized that it made no difference in how good of a person I was, I was deconverted. I stopped believing about 8 years before I stopped going to church and admitted to myself how I felt about it.
So with my experience, the best we can do is just be good honest people and show that a belief in a god doesn't make you a bad person. I think there's a shit ton more atheists than anyone realizes, most of them just haven't admitted it yet.
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