Militant atheism: Why it exists, and why we need it.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Belligerence ensures people hear you.

It may ensure they hear your voice,but it does not ensure they listen. On the contrary,it tends to really piss people off; it does me,whether theist or atheist.

I am not a militant atheist and do not support atheist activism. I consider proselyting others about personal beliefs the height of arrogance.

[LiberalHearted]

I live in a household that just had questions, I told them I'm an atheist. Now I live in a household of atheists.

When the fear overwhelms the belief, the belief finds a way to die, and it it's place reason.

I'd loved to go militant, it might be fun for a while. With my soft tones, no one would notice anyway.

[fuckass365]

[kılıç_mehmet]

If you're going to bring up semantics like "purposes in life," then ho damn you'd better be ready to have a discussion that will last weeks. I'll just take that as you using mind-numbingly dull rhetoric to make yourself sound like you're a real "tell it like it is" kinda guy, and just simply reply to it with the following:

I am, friend. For I think that a purpose makes a person a lot more grown up personally.

If you have such an amazing purpose in life then why the fuck is your name not in the news every day? Either you're the President of the US or at least of some small third-world country somewhere or you're a messiah, or otherwise whatever silly purpose you have that you think is so important in comparison to mine [the only way you could make such a claim is if you yourself are confident your own purpose is much the greater] really isn't, so why don't you climb down off that pedestal you climbed up on, hm?

My purpose is not only my own. My purpose is not *me* oriented.
Besides, my purpose, by my purpose, I mean our purpose, is quite relevant and important given the circumstances it aims to change.
I came to this conclusion by examining other ideologies who claimed to do the same.
Besides, what good is it for you if your name is on the news every day?
What good did it do for Whitney Houston?

My point for the OP was largely made in frustration but it is not something I merely let pop into my head, either. Clearly some of the theists have been met with atheists who simply want to deride them for being a theist. This seems to cause problems for them. But human nature is often that the one who makes the most sense will deride the one who is sounding like an ass. Theism whether you like it or not is basically saying you believe shit that has no evidence to support it other than hearsay. In ANY other matter other than religion when someone says "I believe what this guy says just because he said it," we think they're a gullible idiot. The moment we start talking about invisible bearded fuckers in the sky who are obsessed with small clans of people, suddenly we're in "respect what you're saying" territory. At least that's what people EXPECT, anyway.

My point is, I really don't understand the point of your frustration. I mean, if it were something like a personal issue, I don't have a gf, my mom doesn't love me, my ears are too big, or my feet smell, or something like that, I could try to understand just what really is your problem.
Really, what do you get out of by telling people that are on the polar opposite side of what you believe or don't believe? Theists actually do that for a purpose. They gain converts for their God, and religion. You?
You do that for the sake of....What?
This is what I don't understand here. You can just go about your daily business without actually getting into religious friction with anyone.

I mean, if you aimed for something of a fraternal, political or similar aim, I could understand. But you simply aim for something little as telling other people that their god doesn't exist, with no reason other than to do so.
Let's say that you didn't. Would that make you less an atheist?
No. Just like it would make a theist no less a theist if he/she chose to be extremely personal about his/her faith.

You believe in fairy tales and you're a grown adult. Expect derision from people who stopped believing in the equivalent of Santa Claus and the Tooth Tairy many years ago. I'm not saying that to be a dick; I'm saying it as a genuine advisory.

Meaning that you think that it is your duty to tell people that there is no God, whom you hold to be the equivalent(in terms of existence and social acceptability in belief) of the tooth fairy.

Personally if I say something stupid I damn sure hope people will deride me for it because it'll educate me to make sure I don't make an ass out of myself. It's why despite what Mehmet said, I don't hate him or even dislike him [though the above wording will make it sound like it]. If I hated everyone who derided something stupid I said, I would never have any hope in hell of having ANY kind of intellectual discourse with friends, ever.

Well, in the case you say something that stupid, I will mock you, instead of politely telling you where you're wrong.

Shit, if I didn't get derided for saying stupid shit, I'd still be a christian. But people pointing out the silliness in what I believed and doing it bluntly and without being gentle and ultimately condescending is a large part of what woke me up to all the inconsistencies and logical fallacies within the bible.

I don't know how you became an atheist, but if being mocked is the way to make someone believe in something else than what they believed in before, the person is probably just changing their own beliefs out of fear for being mocked.
What good would it bring me if I mocked and taunted the leftists in the campus, by simply shouting out the same slogans that were proven to be ineffective in breaking their spirit years and years ago?
But I've managed to gain people for our cause by explaining them our views in full, by answering their questions, and getting into polite debates if necessary.
Inconsistencies...Logical fallacies....The term logic, in my opinion, applies to worldly things. What logic can you apply to any supernatural phenomena? The fact that you're trying to apply such logic is illogical in my point of view.

Long story short; if you don't like getting your feelings hurt, then stop believing in fairy tales. Don't even lie to people about your beliefs, either. Either come to terms with the fact that prostration to mythical unprovable entities will get you some measure of derision from people who don't believe in that, or realize WHY you're being made fun of, and throw off the superstition. It's as simple as that.

Meaning, you're a bully. You're going to make people turn atheist by making fun of them for believing in a religion.
I, personally, respect people's personal choices. I see this as one of the prime aspects of secular thought.

Meanwhile I am going to keep being a dick to people who claim their religion is the "correct" one and who can't keep silent about their delusions. I don't inquire peoples' beliefs; they HAVE to tell me theirs of their own accord. Your average normal quiet Christian I have no problem with. Your average normal quiet muslim I have no problem with. Your average covetous jew? No problem with them [except they refuse to give me their bags of jewgold *lol*]. But the ones who are loud? Well, I used to be a metal singer: I can be much fucking louder than they can.

Well, any believer is a believer because he/she thinks that their religion is the correct one. There is nothing else to be said about this.
I don't know why you think that the covetous jew, and the quite moslem think less that their religion is the correct one than the most staunch fundamentalist amongst their kin.
Besides, they can justify their loudness.
How do you justify your loudness?

[parttimeprojectionist]

[quote='kılıç_mehmet' pid='272777' dateline='1334500147']
[quote]
If you're going to bring up semantics like "purposes in life," then ho damn you'd better be ready to have a discussion that will last weeks. I'll just take that as you using mind-numbingly dull rhetoric to make yourself sound like you're a real "tell it like it is" kinda guy, and just simply reply to it with the following:[/quote]
I am, friend. For I think that a purpose makes a person a lot more grown up personally.
[quote]

this answer reminds me of the guy from no country for old men, oh wait he said "friendo", nevermind. still kinda creeps tho.

anyways CoH, i stay awake for days thinking about this topic. im an athiest and think turning poeple away from religion is nessecary.especially in the the U.S.. this is due some of the conclusions ive drawn. for example even tho i dont believe in god i do believe that we have a few things we "ought " to do or is maybe our purpose if you want to say that. i think advancement of the human race is a purpose we all share and in that broad topic, deconversion is included.

the militant part is essential, but not in the way you say, I.E loud and beligerant! even though thats how i feel internally also. ive thought about the possibilities of a suicide athiest bomber or something to that effect( not me! just entertained the idea), but take a look at the Anders guy in norway who shot like 77 people in a attempt to take back christain europe. in the news today i read that record numbers of youth were signing up for those camps now. obviously force and violence doesnt work. BUT a few ideas that would internet wise would be something like a little online athiest terrorist cell that infiltrates xtain forums and asks question and instigates thought. maybe even comes up with fake circumstances like , my baby just died of some cogenital defect will she go to heaven?, the bible says no...whatever. if you where serious youd do this in a real church somehow with some freinds and convert people from inside the lions den!
this is a serious issue that athiests should seriously discuss. the benefits of a more athiest 'merica are many. mehmet, this is the reason for frustration, your belief in god holds back humanity morally and intellectually on the highest of levels.

[kılıç_mehmet]

your belief in god holds back humanity morally and intellectually on the highest of levels.

Does it now?
Saying that atheism will be the salvation of mankind is really as vain as you claim other religions to be.

the benefits of a more athiest 'merica are many.

Well, I can't think of how atheism will make you economically stronger, or how your army will become mightier through a more atheist, or say, more theist America.
Even if you implement a communist Albania type of state atheism, what good would it bring to you? What good did it brought to them?

[parttimeprojectionist]

your belief in god holds back humanity morally and intellectually on the highest of levels.

Does it now?
Saying that atheism will be the salvation of mankind is really as vain as you claim other religions to be.

the benefits of a more athiest 'merica are many.

Well, I can't think of how atheism will make you economically stronger, or how your army will become mightier through a more atheist, or say, more theist America.
Even if you implement a communist Albania type of state atheism, what good would it bring to you? What good did it brought to them?

well i def. would not say athiesm is a religion, first of all. and salvation is an interesting word choice not one i would use to describe what i am refering to. and to be clear i said "a more athiest america" not a totally athiest communist america. which its funny that you connect those dots so quickly. the two are/can be mutually exculsive.
are you american btw? not meant as an insult or anything, just wondering b/c you immedately went that route as if youve experienced communism first hand or something.( ledit-looking at your sig and name and whatnot i guess its pretty obvious you arent)
a more athiest america would most definitely make america better. our foriegn policy would make sense, our education system would shift gears to help make americans competetive instead of impeading science. shit just the advancement and empowerment of women in its self would elevate this nation back up to the top. that being said america being on top is not really my point. i am more concerned with the advancement of the human race. that includes tolerance, morality for the right reasons( i.e. not out of fear), scientific advancements, the list is long and religion gets in the way of pretty much all of them.

[Creed of Heresy]

The problem is, Mehmet, I CANNOT go about my day without getting into religious friction. My house is sandwiched in between three churches that are all within a single block from me and they're all attended by all my neighbors who surround me with religious iconography over their houses, yards, and cars. I cannot leave my house without having to see no less than a half dozen crosses, and the city tells me they are all perfectly legal and allowed. I live my daily life in a country whose entire political process kowtows to christian ideologies first over all others. Shortly after my initial deconversion, I was subjected to a two-year barrage of creationist bullshit that saw me fail science class two years in a row because I refused to acknowledge it as a valid school of thought on the grounds that there is NOTHING scientific about it.

So in short: My reason for being loud? Because the cacophony of religion has been deafening me my entire life. I speak not only for the present, but the past as well; what right do the religious have to whine about me flatly saying their baseless, unreasonable, unscientific, irrational beliefs are just that [despite my 'volume' on the forums, I am not so loudly spoken in person, in truth] when they not only wield far more political power than my far more rational ideologies and therefore technically have far more power over me than I have over them, but also that their ancestors in belief and the loudest of their own numbers commit murders, rape, and torture in the name of their beliefs?? If I am example of the loudest among atheists and the most violent thing I do is yell at the evangelists to get the hell off of my doorstep and to stop coming around and waking me up in the morning, then what ground do they have to stand on to complain when their loudest bomb abortion clinics, kill doctors, blow themselves up in marketplaces and kill hundreds, torture women for the crime of being raped and so on and so forth?

You respect peoples' choices? So if I chose to gut someone like a fish and danced around and chose to tell everyone how much I enjoyed it, would you respect that choice? It's an extreme analogy, mind you, but do you mean you respect peoples' right to decide for themselves? That makes far more sense, if that's the case.

Somewhere along the way, I stopped caring about the differentiation between the quietly devout and the loudly devout. I started grouping them all together.

Looking back on my OP...I can see I was certainly speaking with a lot of rage. When I wrote it I'd just dealt with knowledge that because of the state governor pushing through a bill that was largely sponsored by conservative "family value"-centric christian organizations my room-mates and I are being kicked out of a home we've all become very comfortable in. It was sort of the final straw.

Still...clearly these are feelings that have been gnawing at me gradually over the years, and being quiet and civil and polite has only let them fester. I still maintain, however, that when someone starts screaming at you, you can be quiet for a while but eventually you're probably going to have to scream back, and louder.

I'll have to give this some more thought. I now realize I spoke in haste.

[parttimeprojectionist]

CoH- i dont think you are out of line at all. in your circumstances maybe it is neccessary to stop with the niceities and organize, fightback and be loud and rude as fuck. becuase this goes on more than most athiests with thier heads in the sand realize , or maybe even want to admit. with the black rights movement there was MLK and there was Malcolm X, they both had a significant role to play. maybe some of ours is the athiest X.

[kılıç_mehmet]

well i def. would not say athiesm is a religion, first of all

Well, it lacks the general characteristics of a religion.

and salvation is an interesting word choice not one i would use to describe what i am refering to. and to be clear i said "a more athiest america" not a totally athiest communist america.

Salvation is the only word that came to my mind, but obviously, it sounded rather ironic.
Besides, I'm already aware that a more atheistic America cannot ever equal a totally Atheist, communist America. But I'm not sure what a "more atheistic America" is supposed to be like...

are you american btw? not meant as an insult or anything, just wondering b/c you immedately went that route as if youve experienced communism first hand or something.( ledit-looking at your sig and name and whatnot i guess its pretty obvious you arent)

No, I am a Turk, from Turkey.
And yes, my family did experience communism first hand when they were robbed of their belongings after the Bolsheviks took power. My grandfather's grandfather emigrated to Turkey shortly after that.

a more athiest america would most definitely make america better.

Okay, but I'm not sure that you are really using the right words to describe what your "perfect" America is like.

our foriegn policy would make sense

Well, it makes complete sense to me, even though I'm not American.
Besides, I'm unsure how religious dogma is dictating your foreign policy.

our education system would shift gears to help make americans competetive instead of impeading science.

How? Describe me how you can make your already secular school system *more atheistic*. And of course, how it will contribute to the advance of science and the raising of future scientists.

shit just the advancement and empowerment of women in its self

So you think that women are not empowered enough in the US? What exactly is the reason you think it is so? I'm asking this due to my ignorance, I am not well aware of the literacy rates and the number of educated male/female ratios.

i am more concerned with the advancement of the human race.

Alright. But how is a more atheistic America going to aid this goal?

that includes tolerance, morality for the right reasons( i.e. not out of fear), scientific advancements, the list is long and religion gets in the way of pretty much all of them.

Well, I don't think that religion is in any position to get into the way of anything, as there are now secular nation states, where states are neutral towards schools of spiritual thought, may they be atheistic, or theistic.


Now to you, Creed of Heresy.

My house is sandwiched in between three churches that are all within a single block from me and they're all attended by all my neighbors who surround me with religious iconography over their houses, yards, and cars. I cannot leave my house without having to see no less than a half dozen crosses, and the city tells me they are all perfectly legal and allowed.

Well, you can always change the place you live in, yes? You obviously can't tell the three churches, which are attented by all your neighbors to move. And well, talking of crosses, I can't really go through the city I live in without seeing a handful of minarets each time I look into a direction, but why should I be bothered by them?
What really should drive me to be bothered by them? Maybe you aren't, but since you asked around whether these are legal or not, you must have been.

I live my daily life in a country whose entire political process kowtows to christian ideologies first over all others.

Well, I don't know how political representations are taken into consideration in the state you live in, but hey, it's democracy, yes?

I was subjected to a two-year barrage of creationist bullshit that saw me fail science class two years in a row because I refused to acknowledge it as a valid school of thought on the grounds that there is NOTHING scientific about it.

So much for militancy, I guess.

So in short: My reason for being loud? Because the cacophony of religion has been deafening me my entire life.

Really a poetic choice of words, I'll examine the rest of your post to see for myself.

what right do the religious have to whine about me flatly saying their baseless, unreasonable, unscientific, irrational beliefs are just that [despite my 'volume' on the forums, I am not so loudly spoken in person, in truth] when they not only wield far more political power than my far more rational ideologies and therefore technically have far more power over me than I have over them, but also that their ancestors in belief and the loudest of their own numbers commit murders, rape, and torture in the name of their beliefs??

You have ranted for an entire paragraph full of words. Now, I think that their baseless, unreasonable, unscientific, and irrational beliefs are theirs, and theirs alone. So they are accountable for themselves in that regard. Besides, the fact that they wield more political power in where you live, does not change the fact that people of your way of thinking may hold more power in some other place(state). Like for example, states in which gay-marriage is legal. They probably would go about ranting in the same way. This does not lead back to the christians, but to your stupid political system, actually. Not only that, it also expresses the general need for a more centralized government, probably, which could actually try to find a middle way that could work for everyone.

If I am example of the loudest among atheists and the most violent thing I do is yell at the evangelists to get the hell off of my doorstep and to stop coming around and waking me up in the morning, then what ground do they have to stand on to complain when their loudest bomb abortion clinics, kill doctors, blow themselves up in marketplaces and kill hundreds, torture women for the crime of being raped and so on and so forth?

Maybe you should go and be loud towards those whom you receive as lou d on the opposite side of your way of thinking. If you are loud towards a person who is not as loud as you, it will probably be considered little more than rude.
I personally think that you don't make much sense. You look at this from a very black&white point of view.

You respect peoples' choices? So if I chose to gut someone like a fish and danced around and chose to tell everyone how much I enjoyed it, would you respect that choice? It's an extreme analogy, mind you, but do you mean you respect peoples' right to decide for themselves? That makes far more sense, if that's the case.

Well, that is what it means, actually. They decide for themselves. I am a strong supporter of secularism. It personalizes the collective aspect of faith, to the point where it's collectiveness is within the walls of churches, mosques, synagogues and temples.

Somewhere along the way, I stopped caring about the differentiation between the quietly devout and the loudly devout. I started grouping them all together.

As what? As what, a single entity? Religious consciousness has never been so strong as to group a entire blocks of people for simply believing in the same faith. By your accord, devotees of a sect should not be hostile towards the devotees of another sect.

Looking back on my OP...I can see I was certainly speaking with a lot of rage. When I wrote it I'd just dealt with knowledge that because of the state governor pushing through a bill that was largely sponsored by conservative "family value"-centric christian organizations my room-mates and I are being kicked out of a home we've all become very comfortable in. It was sort of the final straw.

Final straw? I still think that you lack a true purpose in life.
How many final straws have I picked in my short life to tell about it?
Many, probably.

Still...clearly these are feelings that have been gnawing at me gradually over the years, and being quiet and civil and polite has only let them fester. I still maintain, however, that when someone starts screaming at you, you can be quiet for a while but eventually you're probably going to have to scream back, and louder.

If someone starts screaming at you, you scream back. But I think that this time it is you who wants to scream towards someone with hopes they will keep quiet. A very reasonable request indeed.