The illogicality of belief revealed?

[cdabamsworth]

We all have the problem of believers not understanding how their belief is founded on illogicality.

Do you think this approach - of pointing out where belief is illogical - is helpful, or is logic not worth it when talking to the religious?

I have made posts like this trying to explain the illogicality to believers, but I just thought to myself: is it even worth bothering arguing in the realms of logic?

[Phil]

We all have the problem of believers not understanding how their belief is founded on illogicality.

Do you think this approach - of pointing out where belief is illogical - is helpful, or is logic not worth it when talking to the religious?

I have made posts like this trying to explain the illogicality to believers, but I just thought to myself: is it even worth bothering arguing in the realms of logic?

Read my signature and you should be able to guess what my answer is.

[mediamogul]

In my mind fundamentalism represents a certain mindset or way of believing things. It is a mindset that believes in something absolutely and bases all other claims on the assumed truth of their belief. Evolution contradicts the truth of the bible and as a result is false. They are able to believe in the face of reason and evidence. It is nearly impossible to argue with someone who is a fundamentalist. It is useful to argue that the fundamentalist mindset is harmful and antithetical to social, political and personal progress. It is useful to offer information to those struggling with their religious belief. It is useful to create a vocal community of non-religious people. It is useful to show people who think rationally that they are not alone and that their side is not losing the fight against fundamentalism of all kinds.

[Aegrus]

I've had people claim that holding your beliefs to the end, no matter how stupid they are, is a virtue.
For most atheists, debate is a logic-based tool used to find the truth, regardless of whether or not the truth agrees with what we currently believe. For most fundies, debate is a bias-based tool used to impose their will on anyone who doesn't hold their existing "truth".
Because many fundies have never thought logically about their position or the way they live their lives, they don't imagine anything more. They think we must be arguing from bias, same as them, when usually we aren't.

[pgrimes15]

I struggled for years to comprehend that intelligent educated people seemed to believe whole-heartedly in fairy tales and magic, no matter how hard you tried to point out how mind-boggling obvious it was that it was all nonsense. It was as if an adult that you knew still doggedly believed in Father Christmas and had an answer for every objection you pointed out -

- It's your parents who leave the presents, their writing is on the labels.
- No, they leave some but not all, and don't you think Father Christmas can copy their handwriting if he wanted to?
- People live in Lapland and they have never seen him.
- Just because they haven't seen him doesn't mean he's not there.
- How can he visit millions of houses in one night?
- His sleigh is powered by magic tinsel.
- Where and how does he get all the presents . . how does he fit them all in his sleigh . . how does he get into houses or apartments without a chimney . . how does he eat 1.5 billion mince pies , and drink 23 million gallons of sweet sherry in one night ?
- Oh you,ve just got a closed mind, you have to take a leap of faith, you might not believe in father christmas, but your presents will be there all the same, .....

However after much reflection, I decided to think of the stubbornly religious as having had a belief system indoctrinated into them as a young child, and they are in many cases stuck with it - it cannot be shifted. When I thought of them as being brainwashed, everything became clearer. Their unwillingness to engage with the real world made sense - it was like Father Christmas, but no-one had told them he was just pretend until it was too late !!

Because of this brainwashing, it can be said that it is not their fault, and they are to be pitied because of the tortuous logic they have to use to reconcile their indocrinated belief with the real world, (God can't reveal himself because we must have free will, innocent children die in agony because it is all part of a mysterious plan . . .). Furthermore, it is my suspicion that all Christians have had this indocrination, even the ones who claim to once have been an atheist. I have found that people who make that claim equate "atheism" with simply not going to church. Likewise, people of my experience who claim not to have had childhood indocrination simply mean they were not made to go to church very often (despite having very devout parents).

I suppose what I am saying is that using logic with these people is of little value, but it is worth persevering because, you never know, something you say may stick in a Christians' mind. Just saying something like "Does prayer really work when Gods' plan is already decided ?" may give someone cause for pondering in private and begin the road towards shedding that brainwashing.

Regards

Grimesy

[Voltair]

I think that there is definitely a purpose and a reason to talk with theists and use logic. I am saying this because thats what deconverted me less than a year ago. Since then I have been speaking with a decent number of theists and although none of them have, to my knowledge, deconverted I think if nothing else the seed has been planted.

If people hadn't shown me reasoning/discussed the issues with me or engaged in the general discussion on forums like this I may have never broken free. So for the sake of people who are searching I say continue the discussions. Just think of all the lurkers/post views on here that represent people we will never meet or hear from. I used to be one of those lurkers and I can say with absolute certainty that you can reach people.

[houseofcantor]

Pshaw. If sensory depravation techniques don't work, then it's the icepick through the orbital lobe...

[Adjusted Sanity]

We all have the problem of believers not understanding how their belief is founded on illogicality.

Do you think this approach - of pointing out where belief is illogical - is helpful, or is logic not worth it when talking to the religious?

I have made posts like this trying to explain the illogicality to believers, but I just thought to myself: is it even worth bothering arguing in the realms of logic?

Anyone who can be converted will eventually fall to logic. I was a pretty strong christian, and I fell to logic eventually. And then I decided I believed in god anyway.

If someone is spiritual at heart it gets more difficult, and you will never fully separate a emotional thinker from superstition.

[Forsaken]

Its quite baffling why Christians choose to worship the bigoted, racist, sexist, egotistical and narcissistic character they call god. These people have made up their mind (absorbed in the Christian culture) and no amount of rationality will force them to leave their outdated beliefs. Some do recognize this, but the number is just too small to make any significant statistic.